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Fatal Rose
4/06/2017 10:51am,
I'm a huge Lyoto Machida fan, he's the one that rekindled my interest in traditional martial arts and is the reason why I train Shotokan now. I bought is his DVD instructional set and love it. I love how he teaches karatekas how to use traditional kumite techniques in continuous sparring/full contact/MMA type matches.

We are seeing more and more traditional Karate fighters make their way in full contact competition. Raymond Daniels, Stephen Thompson, Justin Scoggins, Gunnar Nelson (his striking), and to a lesser extent Michael Page (he's Lau Gar gongfu I believe). However he fights very western Karate like.

Any other traditional karate practitioners happy about this?

Im aware of Kyokushin and love it as well. Never trained in it though sadly. Countless kick boxing champions and MMA fighters have a background in it. I think it made its way into full contact before other Okinawan Karate styles because it's own style kumite is full contact and the conditioning is insane!

Ive also got Raymond Daniels sparring instructional series and really like it as well. I don't think his style though would work in the traditional JKA kumite I compete in, still fun to learn though. When I return to America I could definitely use JKA type kumite and Raymond Daniels type Kumite in freestyle TMA continuous sparring/point fighting competitions.

Sorry i rambled on way too long. Have no one to really talk to about this here in china.

bassaiguy
6/05/2017 10:23am,
I like what Machida and others have done to bring TMA to the MMA scene. I've yet to pick up his videos, but I practice a relatively hard contact version of Shotokan that owes a bit to Machida. I start my classes with a series of warm-ups that includes some conditioning I've cribbed from both Goju-ryu and Kyokushin to augment Shotokan kihon. Now that I'm in my mid-40s I definitely can't bang away four nights a week and still get to work in one piece the next day like I could 20 years ago, but I do think there is value in pressure-testing your training whatever your age, skill level or level of commitment/competition.

I'm not familiar with Raymond Daniels, but I'll chek him out.

Devil
6/05/2017 12:59pm,
The best way to make karate better is to remove the kata from it.

ksennin
7/06/2017 5:59pm,
The best way to make karate better is to remove the kata from it.

Not just karate.

Fatal Rose
7/08/2017 9:36am,
Kata is great exercise and is part of the culture of TMA, why remove it?

I don't think any serious karate stylist thinks good kata automatically equals good kumite.

ksennin
7/08/2017 10:13am,
The problem is that kata, instead of a tool, has become a crutch.

I know many people who seize onto kata to hide from the more practical aspects. I have seen it become worse and worse over the last three decades.

As I posted before, I was recently present at a local school where a black belt test involved presenting ELEVEN kata and NO KUMITE. Not even point-sparring. No kumite at all. And this was not an elderly practitioner, but rather a guy in his 30s. The only thing resembling practical stuff was a short two-man free-motion drill where only a specifically defined two-punch combo was allowed. I was the one who did it with the prospective black belt and handed him his *ss without even trying despite being over a decade older and severely overweight.

And this was not a marginal school. It is the local representative of the well-known Murayama ShitoRyu organization. The teacher is a fourth dan with decades of experience. But no kumite. Not a single one of his students knows how to defend even a standing choke or hold. No one ever does anything more than point kumite drills at best. Not even running-point kumite.

Meanwhile, green and blue belts who cannot do the Heian series that well are being taught Paiku and Heiku kata for competitions.

The guy who got his black belt that day (despite my grumblings, but alas, not my school, and I am not a teacher) quickly quit the school afterwards and is now training in BJJ at the school of someone I know. That is quite telling. I think he was embarrassed by how I basically played with him during the test and realized that he could not do crap.

So the kata-centered model is actually running people out of karate.

Permalost
7/08/2017 12:11pm,
I'm not sure I buy the "kata is great exercise" trope. Its okay exercise. This is coming from a guy witb a decade of low stance kung fu. When you compare it to other forms of "great exercise", its mediocre.

And now I'll wait to be told that I was doing it wrong all those years.

ghost55
7/08/2017 12:28pm,
I'm not sure I buy the "kata is great exercise" trope. Its okay exercise. This is coming from a guy witb a decade of low stance kung fu. When you compare it to other forms of "great exercise", its mediocre.

And now I'll wait to be told that I was doing it wrong all those years.

I would say it depends on the kata. Sanchin with gallon jars full of water is really fucking hard.

ksennin
7/08/2017 1:14pm,
My daughter keeps coming back from the kata-filled class with a perfectly dry gi. She basically does not sweat enough for it to be noticeable. If I keep her after class and do ten minutes of drills with me, she works up a sweat.

Sam Browning
7/08/2017 1:37pm,
One JKD practicioner and Joe Lewis follower (Jerry Beasley) once wrote that Kata was something you did when you had no one available to practice with.

I think that's a slight exaggeration, but not by much. The problem is that kata are relatively easy to teach to a large class, contain lots of material, and help format and support a ranking system. So they tend to take over classical systems.

lant3rn
7/08/2017 5:30pm,
I would say it depends on the kata. Sanchin with gallon jars full of water is really fucking hard.
That is more like functional training though. I will never do kata again. It's pointless. I would rather do wind sprints up hills. Rope climbs and clean and press if I wanted to train my body. And I'm a firm believer that techniques need to be trained with resistance. Practice on a heavy bag or roll with weighted dummy if you re sadly all alone and wish to train.

sweats
7/09/2017 12:27am,
That is more like functional training though. I will never do kata again. It's pointless. I would rather do wind sprints up hills. Rope climbs and clean and press if I wanted to train my body. And I'm a firm believer that techniques need to be trained with resistance. Practice on a heavy bag or roll with weighted dummy if you re sadly all alone and wish to train.
This. When I look back on all the hours I spent doing kata and think about where I could have ended up had I spent even just 1/4 of that time doing something worthwhile, I want to throw up.

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ghost55
7/09/2017 2:09am,
This. When I look back on all the hours I spent doing kata and think about where I could have ended up had I spent even just 1/4 of that time doing something worthwhile, I want to throw up.

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Where do you draw the line though? Done correctly and lot of kyokushin kata can be considered dynamic tension exercises. Obviously the weapons **** sucks, but there is something worth learning in a lot of the forms if done correctly.

sweats
7/09/2017 10:16am,
I personally draw the line before you start doing katas.

What exactly do you find worth learning in katas and what do you consider to be the benefits of dynamic tension exercises?

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scipio
7/13/2017 9:31am,
Kata seems to end up as a lesson filler for clubs that don't like hitting people/things. A lot of practioners prefer doing kata as it doesn't involve as much effort as sparing and is easy for an instructor to tell a group to go off and practice kata.

Kata in many karate clubs seems to run the risk of becoming the end in itself rather than secondary to kumite/kihon. Bit like Tai Chi forms...

WFMurphyPhD
7/13/2017 9:37am,
Kata seems to end up as a lesson filler for clubs that don't like hitting people/things. A lot of practioners prefer doing kata as it doesn't involve as much effort as sparing and is easy for an instructor to tell a group to go off and practice kata.

Kata in many karate clubs seems to run the risk of becoming the end in itself rather than secondary to kumite/kihon. Bit like Tai Chi forms...
In Judo clubs, we often say: "We have to do the kata...this will come in handy during kata...we don't have time for kata today, but we really do have to the kata...".
For many Judo players, the recognized Kodokan Judo Kata are like broccoli in many ways.
Most people like a little broccoli, unless they can get away with having a little less.