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hungryjoe
2/25/2017 10:09pm,
Posting here for serious discussion. Mods, please feel free to move to an appropriate sub-forum.

We've had discussion here on competitors fighting outside their birth gender. Fallon Fox comes to mind, born a man, identifying as a women and allowed to compete in that category within the sport of MMA. Now we're seeing the flip side. This time it's at the high school level with girl's wrestling. This, in my opinion, is not fair all the way around. The young woman in question, identifying as a male, wants to compete against other males.

The girls are at a disadvantage. Young Mack Beggs began receiving testosterone therapy in 2015. Below link from the Washington Post's writer Kent Babb provides a good look at both sides.

https://img.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_1484w/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2017/02/25/Others/Images/2017-02-24/SP-WRESTLER0972.jpg?uuid=mmMe2Pr1EeaqHl9zXuMTNA
Euless Trinty High School junior Mack Beggs, a transgender wrestler competing in the Texas girls’ state championship tournament, reacts after advancing. Beggs, who went on to win the 6A crown at 110 pounds, is transitioning to a boy but must wrestle in the girls’ divison because of University Interscholastic League rules. (Michael Stravato/For The Washington Post)


https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/highschools/meet-the-texas-wrestler-who-won-a-girls-state-title-his-name-is-mack/2017/02/25/982bd61c-fb6f-11e6-be05-1a3817ac21a5_story.html?utm_term=.f1c682e9194f

DCS
2/26/2017 5:28pm,
What's the problem? Let him wrestle with boys.

hungryjoe
2/26/2017 6:33pm,
What's the problem? Let him wrestle with boys.

You didn't read the article. Texas will not allow a student athlete to compete in a gender other than that at birth.

DCS
2/26/2017 6:48pm,
I did read the article. I stated my opinion about the subjed which differs from UIL's.

WFMurphyPhD
2/26/2017 7:18pm,
Who cares what gender this wrestler is?
It's the PED use that should disqualify this wrestler from youth competition against boys or girls.
Amateur athletes who take steroids, or hormones, or blood cell manipulations known to increase performance,
should not be allowed to compete in standard amateur youth competitions,
regardless of gender, nor gender issues, nor other medical conditions.
No steroids should be allowed in youth amatuer athletic competition, period.

DCS
2/26/2017 7:27pm,
No steroids should be allowed in youth amatuer athletic competition, period.
I agree, but in this case... its complicated.

If his testosterone levels are in the normal range for a male born boy his age, there's no unfairness.

WFMurphyPhD
2/26/2017 7:43pm,
I agree, but in this case... its complicated.

If his testosterone levels are in the normal range for a male born boy his age, there's no unfairness.

I respectfully disagree.
I posted this response earlier on the Bullshido Facebook board, so please pardon the straight copy and paste from my earlier comments for part of this response:
There are many reasons.

First, many young athletes seek performance enhancers without regard for safety or correct medical application.
If a young athlete thinks they will face an opponent with such an advantage
(even under medical supervision and application)
then they will seek to level the playing field or get superior advantage with or without medical supervised and approved application,
and you end up with a PED arms race in the young athletes.

Second, some of these PEDs can give an opponent such an advantage that many people feel it puts the competitors they face at risk.

Third, many of the most successful coaches in grappling sports
(such as Dan Gable as one example)
feel that athletic PED use is a mental crutch, and contrary to the mental resilience and discipline that we are trying to instill in young athletes.
When I competed in the World Tournament in Rio in the mid-nineties,
the joke was that if you sat on the toilets in the training gyms that the steroids that had been pissed out by the local Brazilians would rise up through the bowl and enter your body.
Rillion Gracie famously said during the black belt rules meeting at the event that all the steroids defeated the whole point of training technique based arts such as Jiu-Jitsu, where the display of skill was supposed to be what was being proved, not who could inject the most chemicals into their body.
I think Mr. Gracie had a good point.
What are we trying to teach the kids when we pump their bodies full of PEDs to boost their strength or stamina or recovery times instead of having them earn their performance through hard work, conditioning, and the development of skill?

In this case, we are seeing a wrestler who is taking the PEDs for gender related issues.
Still, I don't think we should make PED exceptions for medical conditions or gender related issue when it comes to standard youth amateur athletic competitions.
For what is it worth, every time I grapple,
I do so with anemia, two artificial hips, nerve damage in my hands and legs, knees with permanent and progressive fractures, and a partially paralyzed leg that is significantly atrophied.
Sometimes we have to suck it up and play the card we are dealt if we want to participate in athletic endeavors.
When it comes to athletics, many competitors are not going to have the body they want or be able to do the athletics things they want to do with the body they have.
It is a savage universe, and athletic competition is supposed to be an unforgiving surrogate for that savage universe, and a test of our ability to use what we do have in a skillful manner.

Don't think that I don't empathize with children dealing with their life issues,
and I am have seen girls pin and submit boys in wrestling and submission competitions when in the same weight class,
so this is not a gender related issue for me.
And I am not commenting on what gender this wrestler is or is not, or what gender opponents this wrestler should be allowed to wrestle.
My issue is that I think there is a problem with PED use for youth amateur athletes even in the case of circumstances like medical issues or gender issues.

I understand that these issues are complicated, so I understand if you or other people disagree.
Eventually stem cell treatments, genetic engineering, better hormonal solutions, and non-biologic implants are going to make humans capable of super human performance, and in a surprisingly near future, I think.
(Experimental gene splicing kits and CRISPR kist can be ordered by home hobbyists now, this area of general experimentation and research not related to athletics but the general area of gene manipulation is going to start moving, first on lower life forms, but then rather quickly right up the chain in the coming decade or decades, I think).
These kinds of performance enhancement questions are only going to get more complicated...

BKR
2/26/2017 8:42pm,
So it's a young woman on testosterone wrestling other women who are not on testosterone. That's not particularly Fair. I would say this person should have to choose between switching their gender identity or wrestling. Or and all I know it's against the rules wrestle with the boys.

Devil
2/27/2017 1:27pm,
Why do people have to be so goddamn weird? You were born a girl. You're a girl. Be a girl. If you want to be a fucking weirdo, don't be surprised when the world takes away the **** you like.

ghost55
2/27/2017 5:35pm,
You didn't read the article. Texas will not allow a student athlete to compete in a gender other than that at birth.

And that is fucking stupid.

ghost55
2/27/2017 5:37pm,
Why do people have to be so goddamn weird? You were born a girl. You're a girl. Be a girl. If you want to be a fucking weirdo, don't be surprised when the world takes away the **** you like.

"I can't into neurology but it's the internet so my blatantly uninformed opinion should be treated as fact."

Go **** yourself.

BackFistMonkey
2/27/2017 5:43pm,
Why do people have to be so goddamn weird? You were born a girl. You're a girl. Be a girl. If you want to be a fucking weirdo, don't be surprised when the world takes away the **** you like.

This is the same simple minded and narrowly focused thinking that leads you to believe violence is going to stop a Ideology or a Religion.

BackFistMonkey
2/27/2017 5:46pm,
Simple minded isn't right and deceptive... hmmm...

"Simple answer answer seeking behavior" would be way more accurate.

kimjonghng
9/11/2017 2:11pm,
So it's a young woman on testosterone wrestling other women who are not on testosterone. That's not particularly Fair. I would say this person should have to choose between switching their gender identity or wrestling. Or and all I know it's against the rules wrestle with the boys.

Is this issue with this more that they are forcing him to wrestle based on his birth gender as opposed to the logical step of putting him in the male category? I've seen varying takes on this news story at this point.

If he's happy to wrestle other dudes and the wrestlers are fine with it, whats the problem?

It's a bit harder to work with in the case of MTF because they retain the frame of men (though reportedly the complete T cut off means theyre stamina and lung capacity reduce to the point of top tier suckitude). But with FTM I understand they basically gain denser bones and strength comparable to natural men after a couple of years.

Then again even with the transgender statistics, theres a lot more male to female than female to male, so I doubt theres any definitive studies to compare trans athletes definitively. It should be at a point of discretion and common sense, like how the Olympics handles it.

MisterMR
9/12/2017 5:28am,
I think that, if this transgender female to male things becomes a relevant problem in sports, it would be possible to have a special rules for transgenders that says explicitly what is the maximum quantity of testosterone a transgender athlethe can use, and thel let them compete with boys.

I don't think the same could work with transgender male to female, though: they would still be forced to compete with boys in this kind of sports.

Some time ago (I think last year) I went to a judo stage held by a famous italian olympic gold medalist. During said stage, we had some randori and I played with a towering man (something like He-man but taller and black haired), but then I realized that said man had boobs (or remnants of boobs). I assume he was originaily a girl who later assumed a lot of testosterone to become a man, I assume he also did some bodybuilding.
The problem is that he had such a strong and muscular body that, I think, can be explained only by really a lot of hormones, and as such it would be unfair to a male who doesn't assume hormones to have a match with someone like him.
(I couldn't throw him, in case you are curious).

kimjonghng
9/12/2017 6:42am,
I think that, if this transgender female to male things becomes a relevant problem in sports, it would be possible to have a special rules for transgenders that says explicitly what is the maximum quantity of testosterone a transgender athlethe can use, and thel let them compete with boys.

I don't think the same could work with transgender male to female, though: they would still be forced to compete with boys in this kind of sports.

Some time ago (I think last year) I went to a judo stage held by a famous italian olympic gold medalist. During said stage, we had some randori and I played with a towering man (something like He-man but taller and black haired), but then I realized that said man had boobs (or remnants of boobs). I assume he was originaily a girl who later assumed a lot of testosterone to become a man, I assume he also did some bodybuilding.
The problem is that he had such a strong and muscular body that, I think, can be explained only by really a lot of hormones, and as such it would be unfair to a male who doesn't assume hormones to have a match with someone like him.
(I couldn't throw him, in case you are curious).

Interesting thing, theres rules for the olympic sports about how long into transition you have to be before you can be considered for sports (Im aware at one stage there was debate on if you have to be post op or not in the case of male to female, but thats been contested a few times and Im not aware of any rule changes). Im sure there can be tests done to see if their hormones are in the normal ranges.

What I find interesting is that MTF athletes in general all seem to struggle with endurance (I believe Fallon Fox has commented on this) apparently lung capacity reduces when youve transitioned (though its a slow process like transition itself) so you effectively have the same size body with less functional lungs. Strength wise apparently the drop in that takes the longest. It would be interesting to study how transgender athletes in combat sports have their perfomances altered, though I doubt theres many trans athletes in combat sports.