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View Full Version : Am I the only one who has experienced this? Legit tap by a lower belt.



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Omega Supreme
2/08/2017 4:59pm,
So this is something that has been bothering me for awhile. I've been teaching SAMBO and then Jiu Jitsu for the past 22 years. Over those years I've told my grappling students that their job was to finally beat me, make me tap, whatever. So over the years I've tapped to a few of them as I guided them through techniques and allowed them to move to submissions without acknowledging that they got a legit tap. I have even had people quit because they would think:
a. I tapped the instructor so he must suck
b. I tapped the instructor but he won't acknowledge it so he's disingenuous.
c. Claimed I threw them out because they tapped me.


When somebody taps me on the mat we make a huge deal of it. We actually stop the entire class to let everybody know it happened. So am I the only instructor that gets butt sore students come through or is this something that happens often. If so, do share.

BKR
2/08/2017 5:20pm,
So this is something that has been bothering me for awhile. I've been teaching SAMBO and then Jiu Jitsu for the past 22 years. Over those years I've told my grappling students that their job was to finally beat me, make me tap, whatever. So over the years I've tapped to a few of them as I guided them through techniques and allowed them to move to submissions without acknowledging that they got a legit tap. I have even had people quit because they would think:
a. I tapped the instructor so he must suck
b. I tapped the instructor but he won't acknowledge it so he's disingenuous.
c. Claimed I threw them out because they tapped me.


When somebody taps me on the mat we make a huge deal of it. We actually stop the entire class to let everybody know it happened. So am I the only instructor that gets butt sore students come through or is this something that happens often. If so, do share.

Tapping isn't such a big deal in Judo, however, getting thrown is. The same thing happens regarding throwing, though.

Short answer is yes, I've had students quit, or be obviously disdainful, when they "tapped" me, or pinned me, or threw me while training. As I get older so much older, that happens more often (pinned, thrown, tapped).

I also tell my students their job is to be better than me. Certainly if they want to succeed at higher levels of competition, they had better be better than I am now or when I was in my "prime".

Back when I could still perform optimally, I had students who would throw me in training (randori), and get all happy about it. I did the same thing my instructors did when I seemed happy to have thrown them, I went ahead and went into full speed competition mode on them for 30 seconds. That usually calmed them down a bit...

I've been legitimately tapped/thrown/pinned by my students. We don't make a big deal out of it though, unless the student wants to do a victory lap...

NeilG
2/08/2017 5:31pm,
If my students manage to legitimately tag me, great for them. However, I am never going 100% against the students. This is the concept of "hikitake keiko", pulling-up practice. Be just a little better than the student, so that they have a chance to hit you if they try their best, but not so much better that they feel overwhelmed and with no chance. My sensei is really good at this. We once had an old member come back for a visit after a few years away, and he commented that sensei had gotten much better. His reply was, "I haven't changed much, you've gotten better". Sensei just needed to play him at a higher level to keep that little gap, or as me and an old friend say, "dial up the ol' schmuck-o-meter".

I know of some other clubs where political problems have occurred when students start to consistently be better than the sensei, and feel the need to challenge authority. This has not happened in our club, as there are no students including me who are consistently better than my sensei. Having a strong technical authority is good for political stability.

Raycetpfl
2/08/2017 8:31pm,
So this is something that has been bothering me for awhile. I've been teaching SAMBO and then Jiu Jitsu for the past 22 years. Over those years I've told my grappling students that their job was to finally beat me, make me tap, whatever. So over the years I've tapped to a few of them as I guided them through techniques and allowed them to move to submissions without acknowledging that they got a legit tap. I have even had people quit because they would think:
a. I tapped the instructor so he must suck
b. I tapped the instructor but he won't acknowledge it so he's disingenuous.
c. Claimed I threw them out because they tapped me.


When somebody taps me on the mat we make a huge deal of it. We actually stop the entire class to let everybody know it happened. So am I the only instructor that gets butt sore students come through or is this something that happens often. If so, do share.

If you train with somebody 10000 times you're likely to slip once or land funny or some sort of anomaly to happen where they're able to catch you. It's happened to me once or twice in the eight years I've been teaching. It's when they can catch you several times in a short amount of time it's legit.
That being said Marcelo Garcia Taps all the time in training. The way you can get better with less skilled people for training partners is by putting yourself in a horribly disadvantageous position and working out of it. If you are constantly "flirting with death" in training you're gonna get caught. If you're not flirting with death how are you going to push your boundaries? I was caught by one of my purple belts during a 2 on 1 match after about 30 minutes. 1 weighs 240 and 1 weigh's 180. The time before that I beat them me vs them. Cry in training and laugh in battle.
For competitors in particular I believe you have to save some for the match so to speak. If I am a couple weeks out from a tournament I will tap to Landing funny or a neck crank so that I don't leave it all in the training room and can stay healthy . Missing the medal stand because you're too proud to tap to somebody you're better than is f****** silly.

gregaquaman
2/09/2017 7:06am,
yeah. pretty much.

Aka-Tora
2/09/2017 8:22am,
I'm not into blind loyalty by any means, but overt arrogance from "besting" your coach when said individual has made an effort to be somewhat courteous is in poor taste.

Tyson could undoubtedly get the better of Cus D'Amato in the ring- does that mean that the latter wasn't fit to coach him?

Long story short, reaching the point where you can get the better of your instructor- whether due to technical improvement on your part, the result of aging on the teachers behalf or both- is not necessarily an indication that he/she has nothing left to give

plasma
2/09/2017 8:15pm,
I have definitely gotten submitted by people that were lower rank that I was teaching. I remember digging for an over/under pass against a blue belt I taught for a few years. He successfully hit me with a high-elbow guillotine that I taught him. It was legit, I made a mistake and he caught me. I was happy he was learning what I was teaching. I been on the other side of that as well, and have submitted more than 1 of my instructors over the years. It just training and I know they were happy that I was improving under their instruction.

kimjonghng
2/10/2017 6:55am,
It's an ego thing, the first thing people are genuinely asked to leave at the door when training. Ive seen it across different clubs from both students and teachers

BKR
2/10/2017 1:05pm,
It's an ego thing, the first thing people are genuinely asked to leave at the door when training. Ive seen it across different clubs from both students and teachers

The whole "leave your ego at the door" thing is kinda silly. If you can voluntarily leave your ego at the door, that would be pretty darned incredible.

If you mean "control your behavior", as in don't purposely hurt anybody, and follow the rules, then, yeah, maybe...

Hard training exposes your (unhealthy/needs to be modified) ego, among other things, so you can get some self-awareness. Maybe...

NeilG
2/10/2017 1:08pm,
Certainly the battle with the ego is one of the big ones. In kendo, we often see the very athletically talented quit early. These are people who have had success in every sport, but they are getting their ass handed to them by a mildly overweight 65 year old man with a bum ankle.

Omega Supreme
2/10/2017 1:43pm,
In truth guys, I'm just curious if it was just me or is it really out there.

BKR
2/10/2017 2:16pm,
In truth guys, I'm just curious if it was just me or is it really out there.

https://i0.wp.com/adamncrawford.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/4e95478182f3a27be1e244ff4e08c883951e0992c2c10ed419 626b12259ec6cd.jpg?w=340

kimjonghng
2/10/2017 2:49pm,
The whole "leave your ego at the door" thing is kinda silly. If you can voluntarily leave your ego at the door, that would be pretty darned incredible.

If you mean "control your behavior", as in don't purposely hurt anybody, and follow the rules, then, yeah, maybe...

Hard training exposes your (unhealthy/needs to be modified) ego, among other things, so you can get some self-awareness. Maybe...

By leaving ego at the door I most certainly mean the behaviour control and not purposely hurting people, along with realizing that no matter how good anyone is, there is always a possibility of human error. A high rank student or teacher can make a mistake and get tapped. By all means train hard, work diligantly to perfect what you do, but never just assume you or anyone else is unstoppable. Be open to getting owned no matter how good you are/think you are. Thats how Ive come to understand it.

BKR
2/10/2017 4:19pm,
By leaving ego at the door I most certainly mean the behaviour control and not purposely hurting people, along with realizing that no matter how good anyone is, there is always a possibility of human error. A high rank student or teacher can make a mistake and get tapped. By all means train hard, work diligantly to perfect what you do, but never just assume you or anyone else is unstoppable. Be open to getting owned no matter how good you are/think you are. Thats how Ive come to understand it.

A great dojo will be all about beating that **** right out of you.

Pship Destroyer
2/10/2017 4:38pm,
The luckiest throw I ever pulled off in randori was a small reap on a brown belt when I was just a white belt. I was a newbie and a careless tori, so I accidentally let go of his gi, and he went flying, and slapped hard on the mat. He looked shocked for about a second, but swallowed his pride and got right back up. Barely phased him, getting thrown that suddenly by a newbie!

I was more shocked than he was so I had no chance to feel smug, and I'm glad I didn't, because I never, ever threw or locked that guy up again.

Afterwards I went over it in my head, trying to figure out what I had done right in that instance, and if I was better than I had thought. I concluded higher ranked belts were better than me not because they could throw or tap someone every time, but because getting thrown or tapped didn't faze them, and only I was the one making a huge deal out of it.

With all due respect you're probably just making a big deal out of it, but shouldn't. By that I mean internalizing it...the fact that you stop the class and make a point to use it as a lesson is great, in my opinion. You're so far beyond simple "win" "lose" mentality, it must just rub you that other people are so clueless and subscribe to that dualistic thinking, knowing it just holds them back. A good coach hates to see missed or wasted potential.

kimjonghng
2/11/2017 2:35pm,
A great dojo will be all about beating that **** right out of you.

There's no words to describe how much I agree with this