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questbrinn
12/27/2016 8:08pm,
Hello,

I am curious if anyone out there has proof or is interested in researching the idea that Daito ryu might have a Chen Tai Chi Chuan lineage?

Tramirezmma
12/27/2016 10:32pm,
I've got no idea what CTCC is. Preach on, I'll listen!

DCS
12/28/2016 3:44am,
I'm curious about your statements, made in another place, that Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu traces its origins to Zen master Shūhō Myōchō (1282-1337 AD) which also was trained in Tai Chi and you have written a book adressing this hypothesis.

questbrinn
12/29/2016 4:24pm,
I'm curious about your statements, made in another place, that Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu traces its origins to Zen master Shūhō Myōchō (1282-1337 AD) which also was trained in Tai Chi and you have written a book adressing this hypothesis.

Admittedly it would be mush easier historically to start my connecting of the two with Tanomo Saigo, since most historians won't give Daito ryu any credence before his time. Tanomo Saigo did teach both Ueshiba and Sokkaku and this was after he got out of prison and was sent to Nikko temple. However, I choose to believe the legends of Minamoto Yoshimitsu having had some hand in the whole thing and thus is the reason why I looked for something earlier.

Shuho Myocho is interesting to me in many ways. One glaring item is the other name he is known by, Daito Kokushi, and the fact that he was so prominent in Kyoto, built the monastery Daitoku and had a friendly relationship with Emperor Go-Daigo. We have Shingen Takeda, probably the greatest Japanese warlord error, being considered by most a Zen master in this tradition passing it down through his family line eventually to Sokaku Takeda himself. Here I want to point out that during the 1600s Takuan was the abbot of this very monastery. Takuan was friends and had a great influence on Itō Ittōsai who created Ittō-ryū of which the Ono-ha system was the foremost of the Aizu Han being taught to all high level Samurai. Takuan wrote "Annals of the Sword Taia" to Ono Tadatsune himself. If that wasn't enough he was well connected with the Shogun himself, Tokugawa Iemitsu.

Ono Tadatsune wold later teach Hoshina Masayuki. From here it gets a little murky as Hoshina Masayuki passed on what he learned to the Saigo family line and eventually it all comes back together with Takeda Soemon and Tanomo Saigo.

Ok, so back to the story, I just wanted to lay down the strong connections that I see.

One of Myocho's teachers was Nampo Jomyo. Nampo Jomyo's major teacher was Xutang Zhiyu who was a Chinese monk who eventually brought Nampo Jomyo to Zhejiang. This all happens around the 12th century at the Jingci monastery. All of this is just to further substantiate the strong connection between this region in China and the Zen, and direct connections to the area where Daito ryu began and flourished and the people involved in its history.

Chen Wangting is the one truly credited for creating Chen Tai Chi Chuan. This is when I bring in Qi Jiguang. Qi Jiguang was a military genius and spent a lot of time in Zhejiang in the 1500s. You might also find it interesting that Qi wrote poems and put them together into the "Collection of ZhiZhi Hall." Digging into Qi's past you will find he had a lot of Naval battles and worked with Japanese pirates, some say fighting them but the more you read this gets a lot more interesting and involved. All throughout these times there were silver shortages in China and they were getting supplies from Western Japanese ports so there was a lot of movement between the two places and and a lot of exchange especially when it comes to Chan/Zen.

Qi Jiguang wrote a book titled Ji Xiao Xin Shu which went over a lot of different military tactics. This book is famous now and certainly was then. What is interesting to note is that 29 of the names of the form created by Chen Wangting are contained with Qi's book where he lists 32 postures of importance. We also have Wang Zhengnan and his "Wang's school of internal martial arts" in this same place filling the gaps in time which is only about 40-50 years. If this wasn't enough the Qi's book is so influential that it was published multiple times in Japan, or at least parts inside the Heiho Hidensho by none other than Yamamoto Kanasuke.

Yamamoto Kanasuke, lived in the 1500s, was a Samurai General, trusted friend and overall bad-ass for.....drum roll.....Takeda Shingen. The book, Heiho Hidensho, is still kept in the Takeda family line to this day.

So, obviously sketchy but it is hard to draw exact lines when dealign with those periods of time. For me all I needed to do was make a solid connection, which I feel I have absolutely done here. That coupled with seeing my teacher in Daito perform what could easily be confused as chan ssu chin, silk reeling exercises, I was convinced. Even Aikido guys have an exercise that people mistake for tai chi sometimes called shumatsu dosa. And, of course you know the connection of aikido and daito.

Anyway, that is the broad stroke of the idea.

Thank you for your interest.

WFMurphyPhD
12/29/2016 4:53pm,
Most of Japan's martial arts were likely imports.
Japan came late to literacy.
Japan, and the "warriors", "samurais" or what have you of Japan had a history of getting beat up by foreign arms bearers.
Usually the only thing that kept Japan from being continually subjugated by foreign powers with actual war skills
was the terrible weather patterns surrounding Japan,
which made subjugating and administrating a Japanese colony a profitless endeavor.
Most of the glamorization of Japanese martial arts prior to Judo are largely fictional comic book, movie and other entertainment driven wishful thinking.
Prior to the end of the Samurai class, Japan had minimal positive showings against foreign powers.
After adopting Western war technologies and methods, Japan briefly fared better leading up to World War II.
However, the war was actually largely over for Japan before the atomic bombs were dropped.
The arts of Sumo, Judo, Kendo, Iaido, Cutting, Aikido (and its predecessor art of Daito Ryu),
and I suppose Karate if we call Karate Japanese, are fascinating curriculums.
With the exception of Sumo,
they are all modern reconstructions that were assembled largely after the fighting Samurai class had been replaced with a poetical version of itself,
with the reconstructions relying on heavy imports of an idealized idea of what Japan's martial history was.
The romantic poetry about the European knights often doesn't give as much attention to dysentery as it probably should,
and this after the fact romanization of the historical knightly class is a common phenomenon,
We also see this kind of romantizing in the cheap western serials sold about cowboys, gunslingers, and "indians" too from the American West.
I would also add that the ninja origin stories are much less impressive than the origin stories of Vlad Tapes that may have inspired some of the Dracula story.
The general that spawned the ninja folklore fought a largely uninspiring battle against a larger force on his home territory and lost.
A Dracula like tourist industry sprung up around the ninja myth and that general's home town;
most of it with less basis than what you would find in tourist towns claiming ties to the Dracula story.
So, I suspect that Daito Ryu Jiu-Jitsu almost certainly was foundationally imported, most likely from China.
Just as Sumo is strikingly similar to the Mongol wrestling found in every place that the Mongols conquered.
And the Mongol empire kicked Japan's ass several times with little effort,
with only the weather saving Japan from being maintained as a minor Mongol territory after each Mongol foray to Japan.
So, even Sumo, which I greatly admire, and is probably Japan's oldest and one true martial art,
was probably imported or strongly influenced by direct interaction from the Mongol traditions,
or indirect interaction through other Mongol conquered territories.
The Mongols and Mongolian Empire really kind of were what the movies suggest the Samurai or Japanese martial art history is or should have been.
By the way, there are many things about Japan and Japanese culture that I really like, including Sumo, Judo, Japanese Gardens, Ramen noodles, their fast train system, sushi, etc.
But, when we evaluate martial skills of older or ancient civilizations,
there is plenty of documentation available on which civilizations used their martial science to great success,
who got their ass kicked more often than not.

DCS
12/29/2016 5:08pm,
Thanks Jason


Admittedly it would be mush easier historically to start my connecting of the two with Tanomo Saigo, since most historians won't give Daito ryu any credence before his time. Tanomo Saigo did teach both Ueshiba and Sokkaku...
That's not a good start.

I'll adress what I perceive as flaws in your theories next year for I'll spend the next few days in no-internet land.

DCS
12/29/2016 5:14pm,
So, I suspect that Daito Ryu Jiu-Jitsu almost certainly was foundationally imported, most likely from China.
Well, I suspect Daito Ryu is a product of Takeda Sōkaku's ingenuity and experience, not an art that that existed before him.

WFMurphyPhD
12/29/2016 5:20pm,
Well, I suspect Daito Ryu is a product of Takeda Sōkaku's ingenuity and experience, not an art that that existed before him.

If I speculate, I suspect that Takeda put his own twist as a bonafide bad ass on a prior curriculum.

The man had a documented reputation for being a bonafide bad ass who would fight, win or lose, every tough guy in the room from town to town.

Unlike the founder of Aikido who had a reputation for being an excellent demonstrator and show man with his compliant student ukes,
but who had a tendency to flee town when his former master (Takeda) came looking for his license fee payments...

From reading the letters about him, I suspect that Takeda and Mitsuyo Maeda, and the Helio Gracie would have had a lot in common regarding their outlook as fighters and bad asses, ready and willing to fight anyone, anytime.

I don't mean to disrespect Takeda as a great man who was well documented as a great fighter, ready and willing to fight.

But, I merely wish to point out that much of Japan's martial science tradition was recreated and imported from larger and more developed martial empires and cultures after the Samurai class had been virtuously officially discouraged from continuing its existence as oppressors, rapists, and bandit lords over the farming and merchant populations.

My real point is that the Samurai class seemed to have been a largely worthless bunch who got away with a lot because the people they were oppressing were illiterate farmers and fisherman stuck on a small and isolated island - rather than getting away with their lording, raping, and terror over the local peasants because they were particularly skilled at martial sciences compared to their larger world contemporaries.

WFMurphyPhD
12/29/2016 5:39pm,
To give some perspective, I have been to several Asian countries, including Japan.
I was shocked at how "older" Korean culture was than Japan's culture,
and how much farther along and how many more important scientific and technological contribution non-modern Korean made compared to non-modern Japan.
And, how much earlier that Korea became exposed to literacy compared to Japan.
And China is just even older and more prodigious of a truly ancient culture than even Korea, with ancient science, and early literacy compared to Japan.
Until the West forced Japan to open, Japan was in many ways just a backward little island of fisherman and struggling farmers on rocky soil.
Even as isolated and as isolationist (from fear) as Japan was, it still was a great importer of culture and science,
including military knowledge imports when it could get it.
Even sushi as a way of preparing fish and rice was a cultural knowledge imported to Japan from China.
There was not much scientific know-how (including martial sciences) in Japan that was not imported from China, or Mongol incursions, or surrounding cultures, or even from western visitors.
Japan has made some truly amazing leadership catch up following World War II and now have an incredibly large economy.
So, I respect Japan's modern accomplishments, standing on the imported knowledge from the west combined with the Japanese work ethic and culture.
But, as far as ancient Japan, it was an isolated fishing island without much farmable land, and was largely an importer of knowledge when it could get it from surrounding larger cultures, empires, and visitors.

BKR
12/29/2016 6:46pm,
Well, I suspect Daito Ryu is a product of Takeda Sōkaku's ingenuity and experience, not an art that that existed before him.

That is my understanding, he synthesized it from oshikiuchi, plus other koryu arts he had studied.

Links between those arts (I don't have the list handy) and China are likely even more up for debate.

DCS
12/29/2016 6:56pm,
That is my understanding, he synthesized it from oshikiuchi
Is there any proof Oshikiuchi being a martial art?

BKR
12/29/2016 7:03pm,
That is my understanding, he synthesized it from oshikiuchi, plus other koryu arts he had studied.

Links between those arts (I don't have the list handy) and China are likely even more up for debate.

That may well still be being debated. As you likely know already, oshikiuchi has been debated for a while (decade). I did a quick search, and found stuff going back to 2000 on e-budo discussing the origins of Daito Ryu.

I'd say oshikiuchi, from what I've read, may have had some martial arts techniques in it, for use while seated in Edo period castles, besides being some sort of inside/courtly manners/etiquette system.

That's all I'll say regarding that, I don't have time or inclination to do the research you've probably already done.

As for the dreaded "internals" that everyone still debates about and is apparently trying to figure out or claims to have figured out (and maybe even teach, (Harden, maybe Amdur, for example), similarities between Daito Ryu and Chen family stuff, well, it's a big so what in my world.

Interesting academically, but how much practical use above and beyond other practical ways of training I don't know.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17487

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?10792-Oshikiuchi-Gotenjutsu-(Daito-ryu)

questbrinn
12/29/2016 7:06pm,
That is my understanding, he synthesized it from oshikiuchi, plus other koryu arts he had studied.

Links between those arts (I don't have the list handy) and China are likely even more up for debate.

oshikiuchi would have been taught by someone like Tanomo Saigo. I can also add from my training that most of the words used for techniques on the mokuroku for daito ryu use a very old form os Japanese that is heavily steeped in shinto and zen. Now that might be everything from that era but I don't know.

One of the techniques taught is called kashiwade, praying hands.

BKR
12/29/2016 7:11pm,
oshikiuchi would have been taught by someone like Tanomo Saigo. I can also add from my training that most of the words used for techniques on the mokuroku for daito ryu use a very old form os Japanese that is heavily steeped in shinto and zen. Now that might be everything from that era but I don't know.

One of the techniques taught is called kashiwade, praying hands.

How about Neo-Confucianism ?

questbrinn
12/30/2016 9:51am,
How about Neo-Confucianism ?

You could be right about that I honestly don't know. I am not a subject expert on any of this but I do have a lot of understanding about daito and how it was passed along and such.

BKR
12/30/2016 2:18pm,
You could be right about that I honestly don't know. I am not a subject expert on any of this but I do have a lot of understanding about daito and how it was passed along and such.

That's the issue, really.

There is a lot of material/discussion out there.

And, you are nidan in DRAJJ, right?