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kimjonghng
8/27/2016 6:29pm,
So Im wondering lately when I look back on my old training notes and time spent and it had me wondering if there's any koppojutsu that exists outside of the bujinkan, since I cant seem to find the term attributed to other systems outside of Koto Ryu and Gikan Ryu. I mean I'd assume given that the descriptions of the style about attacking core structure could be applied to arts such as judo and anything where the opponents posture is compromised.

gregaquaman
8/28/2016 4:13am,
Would you be able to describe the technique in a way those of us who haven't done the booj might understand?

gregaquaman
8/28/2016 4:20am,
I looked it up.

Accurately hitting people in places that hurt them?

Or have i missed something.

kimjonghng
8/28/2016 6:13am,
I looked it up.

Accurately hitting people in places that hurt them?

Or have i missed something.

No thats quite literally it, the whole idea is described as hitting sensitive areas and comprimising their structure to put them off balance (like how you upset balance in judo), sort of sounds quite universal to fighting techniques in general really

BigJim520
8/28/2016 7:38am,
So like targeting pressure points like several BS martial arts? Or does striking the head count? Liver shot? Groin?

mrtnira
8/28/2016 7:55am,
Kimjonghng, I was in Japan for three years in the '80s and was already a historian in training. I was interested in "ninjutsu" when Hayes started advertising it in the U.S. in the 1970s. Having an understanding that ninjutsu was a thing, I went to museums with an eye to find out what ninjutsu was. The images were of sneaky people climbing castle walls, etc., and there was a lot of image management in movies, etc. That much is for background and context.

Now that other people have brought out and translated period Japanese writings and manuals on ninjutsu, it appears that it was the role of the reconnaissance soldier and human intelligence operator. The pattern of work role is common to militaries, regardless of the era. There was always a need for reconnaissance soldiers, and for people running espionage rings. The techniques people used to fight would be taught in the different training centers for each military clan. Once the two hundred year long civil war in Japan was over (roughly 1400 to 1600), the clans became dual hatted institutions and provided civil administration, as well as provided a force for internal security and defense of the shogunate. Each clan had its own school, just like militaries have training centers today.

It appears that the 1960s, 1970s ninja methods that were taught by Hatsumi were period techniques from a specific period school. Which one? I don't know. As the ninja presence grew in popular awareness and grew in market share, I don't know how much new material was added. It is common for new and adulterated material to enter into teaching as the number of instructors grows. Things morph into something new. Now that it is a global movement over several decades, Hatsumi's control of what is taught may not be strong.

I don't know how interested you are to do "homework", but actually tracking method across the chronology of a fighting style can be a fascinating study. Maybe this would be something you'd like to do? What was the lineage of the method, what were the historically factual fighting techniques, when did it start to change, and how did it change? You might find it a personally valuable walk through the history of military doctrine and training. Everything happens in a context. For example, "ninjutsu" understood and practiced in 1600 might have been very different than what was presented to the Imperial Japanese Army Nakano spy school trainees in 1941. The patterns might be the same, but the practice would have changed with industrialization and technology.

Christmas Spirit
8/28/2016 9:37am,
So Im wondering lately when I look back on my old training notes and time spent and it had me wondering if there's any koppojutsu that exists outside of the bujinkan, since I cant seem to find the term attributed to other systems outside of Koto Ryu and Gikan Ryu. I mean I'd assume given that the descriptions of the style about attacking core structure could be applied to arts such as judo and anything where the opponents posture is compromised.

Every single combat sport uses targeted striking, effectively. It is NOT unique to ninjers in any way shape or form. The only unique part the Booj has is that everything they do is compliant and fantasy based. It requires HARD and continuous sparring to actually learn the skills. No amount of soft contact (no matter the ruleset) or 2/3/4 step drills ( no matter how hard the contact )will ever give you the results that they claim.

kimjonghng
8/28/2016 11:22am,
So like targeting pressure points like several BS martial arts? Or does striking the head count? Liver shot? Groin?

from my experience we didnt have a 'pressure point' or 'death touch' sort of deal where you hit tiny points with a finger. Head, Liver and Groin were all things to target, along with other sensitive areas like inner thigh, throat/neck. Usually punching, front kicks or in the case of the throat there was a strike we did do with fingers and drove them into the bit below the adams apple.

I'm just curious about specifically how Koppojutsu stands in comparison as a name that sets itself aside from any other martial art idea

kimjonghng
8/28/2016 11:25am,
Every single combat sport uses targeted striking, effectively. It is NOT unique to ninjers in any way shape or form. The only unique part the Booj has is that everything they do is compliant and fantasy based. It requires HARD and continuous sparring to actually learn the skills. No amount of soft contact (no matter the ruleset) or 2/3/4 step drills ( no matter how hard the contact )will ever give you the results that they claim.

I was in the Booj long enough to see that sort of training, I also wouldnt call that 'unique' as its a problem in a number of other styles that Bullshido has discussed. Im just wondering now in my own time now if the ideas of Koppojutsu or any of the other techniques labelled Koppojutsu (which seem very gendai jujitsu to my eye) could be extracted from the Bujinkan training I did and incorporated into my arsenal still. I guess since my MMA class normally encourages us all to go out and see what we could find I could attempt to see if anything from my Boojer days (besides the breakfalling) can be used in a more alive manner.

Christmas Spirit
8/28/2016 11:29am,
from my experience we didnt have a 'pressure point' or 'death touch' sort of deal where you hit tiny points with a finger. Head, Liver and Groin were all things to target, along with other sensitive areas like inner thigh, throat/neck. Usually punching, front kicks or in the case of the throat there was a strike we did do with fingers and drove them into the bit below the adams apple.

I'm just curious about specifically how Koppojutsu stands in comparison as a name that sets itself aside from any other martial art idea

KoppoJutsu as trained by the Booj is fantasy bullshit unless it is trained with hard contact under a very loose ruleset. Take for example your open finger strike to the base of the neck. That is retarded and based in fantasy. If you can poke the throat you can strike the chin (*edit* or punch the throat! ) . The poke risks broken and dislocated fingers at worst and having no effect while the strike to the chin risks nothing more than your average jab or cross.

In other words the ideas are not unique at all, but at the same time it is unique because it is all faith based, untested, and full of incorrect assumptions.

The thighs, liver, kidneys, solar plexus, neck throat and temple and floating ribs, knees, collar bones, ankles, toes, fingers, arm pit and nose are all valid targets which striking combat arts are trained to strike or disable.

kimjonghng
8/28/2016 1:12pm,
KoppoJutsu as trained by the Booj is fantasy bullshit unless it is trained with hard contact under a very loose ruleset. Take for example your open finger strike to the base of the neck. That is retarded and based in fantasy. If you can poke the throat you can strike the chin (*edit* or punch the throat! ) . The poke risks broken and dislocated fingers at worst and having no effect while the strike to the chin risks nothing more than your average jab or cross.

In other words the ideas are not unique at all, but at the same time it is unique because it is all faith based, untested, and full of incorrect assumptions.

The thighs, liver, kidneys, solar plexus, neck throat and temple and floating ribs, knees, collar bones, ankles, toes, fingers, arm pit and nose are all valid targets which striking combat arts are trained to strike or disable.

See this is what Im talking about, I'm curious if there's anything of worthwhile within it I can apply. I've seen in ground fighting people apply pressure in similar ways to the neck like that to try to force a submission by basically pressing on the windpipe from a dominant position onto a grounded target, but that's not what I would call a go to strategy, more something that might happen by sheer chance of getting on top of someone and taking all their limbs out of the equation.

All the targets you listed were in the gyoku ryu densho I still own from my previous training, plus few that Im not too sure I'd prioritize ever (eye attacks in stand up? mate nah) so it seems in conclusion theres nothing to seperate the ideas of 'koppojutu' from anything else really

Christmas Spirit
8/28/2016 1:59pm,
See this is what Im talking about, I'm curious if there's anything of worthwhile within it I can apply.

Sure there is.
It is all going to be theory tho.
The only way you are going to learn those concepts is through hard sparring under a loose ruleset and you probably won't really get any of the details without a solid coach/instructor. You will just keep trying what you think should work.

Christmas Spirit
8/28/2016 2:09pm,
All the targets you listed were in the gyoku ryu densho I still own from my previous training, plus few that Im not too sure I'd prioritize ever (eye attacks in stand up? mate nah) so it seems in conclusion theres nothing to seperate the ideas of 'koppojutu' from anything else really

Muay Thai for example, will teach you koppojuto, it just will not be "watered down" with bullshit. So the concepts of "koppojutu" are not unique, many styles implement the strategies and methodologies, often built into the techniques and vice versa.

When it comes to eye pokes, they are legit. If you can jab your opponent in the face with ease you can then eye poke them on teh streetz. Keep working that jab and you can eye poke like the ninja we all want to be deep in our hearts.

baby_cart
8/28/2016 6:16pm,
koto ryu koppo has a branch outside the buj, it's from the ueno group. the only koppo i know that does not have connections with takamatsu chosui is horibe seishi's group, iirc it was also featured on the ninja episode of fight quest. https://books.google.com/books?id=VNYDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA34&lpg=PA34&dq=koppo+horibe&source=bl&ots=aefgBlSwAu&sig=hCWulmby5zT-3aWfAzyuFskVUYM&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=koppo%20horibe&f=false

mrtnira
8/28/2016 8:43pm,
I spent my afternoon trying to track down images of Koppojutsu that would be useful to the discussion. The internet is so junked up now that it is like talking to a crazy person. One image pull had nothing to do with Koppojutsu. It was a squirrel in a park. The returns were so random it was almost a total waste of time. Others may be more successful, or may know of specific pages they might like to link the in the discussion.

However, the search did take me to a Chinese version of bone breaking and that is Iron Palm training, and there were some very clear presentations of modern training in this on You Tube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xgtS5unbNE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4w9YoiNVmc

And there was this interesting historical Iron Palm film: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX7loxswTZ0

I did find a photograph of a Chinese People's Armed Policeman demonstrating his ability to penetrate a brick with his index finger. This would be a koppojutsu type/category of technique. It reflects that methods of training didn't just stay in one place. These methods may have been adjusted to local cultures, but the intention, the basic training, and the application in combat for effect would be very similar. That book is PLA Forces, p. 161, Conmilit Press Ltd., Hong Kong, 1986.

The fact that the skill remained in the inventory of special skills training within some special Chinese government units reflects the utility of the method at some level. If a body guard is that able with his body, then his body is the weapon. However, in the modern era I doubt this has continued. Weapons have become smaller, and can range from less lethal to lethal and allow body guards a greater range of responses than before, and the training time would be reduced without the years of specific body hardening that Iron Palm or Koppojutsu would have required.

Christmas Spirit
8/28/2016 10:31pm,
I spent my afternoon trying to track down images of Koppojutsu that would be useful to the discussion. The internet is so junked up now that it is like talking to a crazy person. One image pull had nothing to do with Koppojutsu. It was a squirrel in a park. The returns were so random it was almost a total waste of time. Others may be more successful, or may know of specific pages they might like to link the in the discussion.

However, the search did take me to a Chinese version of bone breaking and that is Iron Palm training, and there were some very clear presentations of modern training in this on You Tube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xgtS5unbNE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4w9YoiNVmc

And there was this interesting historical Iron Palm film: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX7loxswTZ0

I did find a photograph of a Chinese People's Armed Policeman demonstrating his ability to penetrate a brick with his index finger. This would be a koppojutsu type/category of technique. It reflects that methods of training didn't just stay in one place. These methods may have been adjusted to local cultures, but the intention, the basic training, and the application in combat for effect would be very similar. That book is PLA Forces, p. 161, Conmilit Press Ltd., Hong Kong, 1986.

The fact that the skill remained in the inventory of special skills training within some special Chinese government units reflects the utility of the method at some level. If a body guard is that able with his body, then his body is the weapon. However, in the modern era I doubt this has continued. Weapons have become smaller, and can range from less lethal to lethal and allow body guards a greater range of responses than before, and the training time would be reduced without the years of specific body hardening that Iron Palm or Koppojutsu would have required.

...

I see parlor tricks completely removed from application. Just like 99% of all Iron **** training. One, count them ONE iron **** TCMA guy I have ever heard of is willing to throw hands and fight. ONE. ... and as far as I know NO ONE has taken him up on the offer.

Yes he is a poster here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGylrtGcN08