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Mandem
7/12/2016 4:51am,
I'm planning on stepping up my conditioning. I currently go to a boxing gym that has a decent weight room and is pretty cheap, and I've been enjoying doing some weight training after the bag sessions. However I don't want to injure myself with shitty form, so my plan is to stop going there for a while and instead go to a weightlifting club that has a fairly big focus on coaching to learn how to do squats, deadlifts etc without killing myself (I will still be doing Muay Thai twice a week), then go back to training at the boxing gym. A few questions:

1) Is it a good idea to do weight training after bag sessions, i.e. does it matter that you aren't fresh?
2) The weightlifting club offers powerlifting and olympic lifting. My original plan was to start the 5/3/1 program when I returned to boxing, but I have since heard that olympic lifting is also very good for martial arts as it develops power. Any advice on integrating the two?
3) Is there any glaring stupidity in this plan that I haven't spotted?

1point2
7/12/2016 11:09pm,
You can do whatever you want and it probably doesn't matter that much for people at our level of training.

But sports science has a clear finding: all workouts should go in the following order, with every component optional *except* the first:

1. Warm up
2. Skill work
3. Power work
4. Strength work
5. Endurance/cardio work

Weight training in the form of squats and deadlifts is both strength work and, for a beginner, skill work. It should not be preceded by bag sessions, which are mostly cardio and a little bit skill.

You should do the power lifts (e.g. 5/3/1 or similar) until you achieve some basic strength benchmarks, then incorporate the power variants of the Olympic lifts. This is optimal for general fitness and preparing for combat sports. Classic Oly lifts (the squat snatch, the squat clean) are not as useful outside their domain as the power variants. Oly lifting requires a baseline level of strength that the power lifts can provide.

I'd do the lifting sessions separate from the bag sessions, or do the bag work after a brief lift or two. 5/3/1 with the accessories being bag work would be fine.

gold_ax666
7/13/2016 8:05am,
For what it is worth I do Stronglifts. It's a 5x5 programme. Usually done 3 times per week but depends on time availability amongst other types of training of course.

I'm currently in the process of setting up my business and going full time teaching martial arts and haven't had time tom invest in the last couple of months but I had awesome gains when doing Stronglifts. Just 3 exercises per workout: Squat, Bench, row or squat, shoulder press, deadlift. Compound movements. No isolation. Weight increase every session (although small increases!).

Google it. There's a free download which gives you all the info required.

Having said that all the areas of conditioning should really be addressed: flexibility, endurance, strength and, of course, technical and mat time. Easy for me to say-as of this August I'm gonna have a **** load of time to do what I want!

What time do you have to invest? Cos your lifestyle will dictate what you do in many ways mate.

BKR
7/13/2016 10:41am,
For what it is worth I do Stronglifts. It's a 5x5 programme. Usually done 3 times per week but depends on time availability amongst other types of training of course.

I'm currently in the process of setting up my business and going full time teaching martial arts and haven't had time tom invest in the last couple of months but I had awesome gains when doing Stronglifts. Just 3 exercises per workout: Squat, Bench, row or squat, shoulder press, deadlift. Compound movements. No isolation. Weight increase every session (although small increases!).

Google it. There's a free download which gives you all the info required.

Having said that all the areas of conditioning should really be addressed: flexibility, endurance, strength and, of course, technical and mat time. Easy for me to say-as of this August I'm gonna have a **** load of time to do what I want!

What time do you have to invest? Cos your lifestyle will dictate what you do in many ways mate.

To some degree, yes, but what 1point2 wrote...at our level of skill/level of training, general fitness is more of the thing.

However, I'd suggest that cycling through the various ABCs (agility, balance, coordination, speed), and skill, and strength for the more serious-minded.

Warmup and skill training first, though, for sure. Doing skill training when you are tired is not optimal for most normal humans.

Mandem
7/13/2016 10:49am,
What time do you have to invest? Cos your lifestyle will dictate what you do in many ways mate.

I have a lot of time at the moment, around this time next year I will have some very important exams and will have to scale back on training a bit. Until then I think I could train 5x a week without much difficulty time wise (including Muay Thai, boxing and conditioning)

Mandem
7/13/2016 10:52am,
You can do whatever you want and it probably doesn't matter that much for people at our level of training.

But sports science has a clear finding: all workouts should go in the following order, with every component optional *except* the first:

1. Warm up
2. Skill work
3. Power work
4. Strength work
5. Endurance/cardio work

Weight training in the form of squats and deadlifts is both strength work and, for a beginner, skill work. It should not be preceded by bag sessions, which are mostly cardio and a little bit skill.

You should do the power lifts (e.g. 5/3/1 or similar) until you achieve some basic strength benchmarks, then incorporate the power variants of the Olympic lifts. This is optimal for general fitness and preparing for combat sports. Classic Oly lifts (the squat snatch, the squat clean) are not as useful outside their domain as the power variants. Oly lifting requires a baseline level of strength that the power lifts can provide.

I'd do the lifting sessions separate from the bag sessions, or do the bag work after a brief lift or two. 5/3/1 with the accessories being bag work would be fine.

Thanks a lot. So when I move on to incorporating oly lifts (I'd heard about the power variants being more useful) I should do them before the 5/3/1 lifts (I.E. power before strength like you said)? Or should I do that in a different session?

1point2
7/13/2016 11:31am,
Thanks a lot. So when I move on to incorporating oly lifts (I'd heard about the power variants being more useful) I should do them before the 5/3/1 lifts (I.E. power before strength like you said)? Or should I do that in a different session?

Glad to help!

You should do them in the same session, scaling back the 5/3/1 lifts as you add the Oly. When you start adding the Oly lift power variants, you should move away from 5/3/1 to a more Oly-influenced program. That's because Oly lifts don't do well with the kind of reps required by 5/3/1, and putting a speed-strength lift that you're giving primary focus before your squat or deadlift would derail your 5/3/1 squat/bench/deadlift/press.

What I recommend, roughly, is incorporating the power snatch and power clean after reaching something like 1.5 to 2x bodyweight deadlift and a 1.25 to 1.5x bodyweight squat (and comparable numbers in the other lifts). Make sure your overhead/shoulder mobility is on point before starting to snatch. I'm just spitballing, but to incorporate Oly stuff I might do a workout like:

- dynamic warm-up
- power clean, starting light, working up to 5-8 heavy doubles or triples
- squat (front or back) 3x5, heavy but not necessarily maxing out
- accessory work, probably pull-ups

and on another day:

- dynamic warm-up
- power snatch, starting light, working up to 8-10 heavy doubles or singles
- deadlift 1x5, heavy but not necessarily maxing out
- accessory work, probably dips or overhead press

Just for context, my "powerlifting before adding Oly lifts" workout is just warm up -> squat 3x5 -> overhead press 3x5 -> deadlift 1x5. If I have extra energy I do pull-ups and whatever else I feel like. I don't bench because benches and squatters have been scarce in the gyms I've been using.

Streetcat
7/13/2016 7:33pm,
I found most of the preceding comments very interesting. I am going to investigate the weight program's mentioned.

There wasn't a lot of sophistication when I started training and most fighters didn't combine MA with weights at all. ( you don't want to get muscle bound ).

I researched weight training on my own, and did some on the side. I made it progressive weight training but basic. I just read about how to do the exercise and watched others at the gym to get my instruction.

Being primarily a striker, I followed a boxing routine. I used calisthenics, medicine ball and jump rope for a warm up then I worked the bags. I spent a lot of time on the heavy bag and I found it gives you a type of strength you can't get from lifting. It's a kind of impact power sometimes called "heavy hands". When I got into karate/kung fu, I incorporated a lot of bag kicking. It seemed to work good.

Then, after a good long and intense bag workout I did my weights. And, I cooled down with a run and some stretching. At one point, for a period, I added some yoga.

This I pretty old school but If you want to hit hard it works. If I wanted to body build or wrestle I probably would rearrange the routine and emphasize more sophisticated weight work.

I worked out at the time at the YMCA which had a boxing room, weight room and an indoor track so it was easy to put it all together.

Invite your comments.