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plasma
7/06/2016 9:47am,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbCvfPCRbhw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbCvfPCRbhw

Raycetpfl
7/06/2016 10:20am,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbCvfPCRbhw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbCvfPCRbhw

This was a good match. I think it really illustrates the different focus of Jiu-Jitsu players. In a submission only match going for legs like that doesn't really have a major negative consequence. Leaving your head unprotected while hunting legs is just fine and can win you the match.
In mma/Vale Tudo style jiu jitsu that would get you tee'ed off on.

Eddie definitely hurt him with that inside heelhook. There was some tearing there for sure. Toquino had a couple nice passes but Eddie was attacking the whole match. It was a very nice draw.

plasma
7/07/2016 2:46am,
This was a good match. I think it really illustrates the different focus of Jiu-Jitsu players. In a submission only match going for legs like that doesn't really have a major negative consequence. Leaving your head unprotected while hunting legs is just fine and can win you the match.
In mma/Vale Tudo style jiu jitsu that would get you tee'ed off on.

Eddie definitely hurt him with that inside heelhook. There was some tearing there for sure. Toquino had a couple nice passes but Eddie was attacking the whole match. It was a very nice draw.

So why when a Judo player or Wrestler spins to their stomach exposing their back no one points out "how terrible it is for MMA/VT" however, when a Jiu Jitsu player goes for the legs or sits guard, everyone immediately jump to "well, you can't do that in MMA." I know Jiu Jitsu was synonymous for MMA and Vale Tudo for years, but nowadays is definitely its own legitimate sport.

Now, I think its fair to point out if this was a Traditional Points match, Cummings strategy of relentlessly attacking the legs wouldn't be as good as he never scores vs Mendes getting a lot closer to scoring via guard pass (I can't recall if held the position for 3 seconds to get points). So its interesting to see the strategy change for Submission Only via Point matches.

DCS
7/07/2016 8:11am,
I know Jiu Jitsu was synonymous for MMA and Vale Tudo for years, but nowadays is definitely its own legitimate sport.

I don't think bjj has reached that stage yet..

Raycetpfl
7/07/2016 8:12am,
So why when a Judo player or Wrestler spins to their stomach exposing their back no one points out "how terrible it is for MMA/VT" however, when a Jiu Jitsu player goes for the legs or sits guard, everyone immediately jump to "well, you can't do that in MMA." I know Jiu Jitsu was synonymous for MMA and Vale Tudo for years, but nowadays is definitely its own legitimate sport.

Now, I think its fair to point out if this was a Traditional Points match, Cummings strategy of relentlessly attacking the legs wouldn't be as good as he never scores vs Mendes getting a lot closer to scoring via guard pass (I can't recall if held the position for 3 seconds to get points). So its interesting to see the strategy change for Submission Only via Point matches.

Ninja Please! I make fun of Judo players when ever possible. For instance, they flop to their knees more than catholic girls after a few drinks.......

Yeach I think Toquino passed twice. One of the times he really didnt like what Eddie was wranglin' from side control/knee in belly and bailed on the position. Which is crazy! How good are you if you can just make dudes jump back from a dominant position because you start setting something up from side control? The dudes are are awesome.
I have been watching Eddie,Gordons and Gary's heelhook game in amazement. I don't understand why people even try to pass on the inside on them. I would think there would be people attempting all torendo and leg dragging.
The only inside passing players that seem to get by are Keenan and Toquino. Keenan slices through Gary's guard like butter generally. It's pretty crazy really.

BKR
7/07/2016 2:47pm,
So why when a Judo player or Wrestler spins to their stomach exposing their back no one points out "how terrible it is for MMA/VT" however, when a Jiu Jitsu player goes for the legs or sits guard, everyone immediately jump to "well, you can't do that in MMA." I know Jiu Jitsu was synonymous for MMA and Vale Tudo for years, but nowadays is definitely its own legitimate sport.

Now, I think its fair to point out if this was a Traditional Points match, Cummings strategy of relentlessly attacking the legs wouldn't be as good as he never scores vs Mendes getting a lot closer to scoring via guard pass (I can't recall if held the position for 3 seconds to get points). So its interesting to see the strategy change for Submission Only via Point matches.

Are you kidding, I've read that so many times (about judoka giving their back up) it's like SOP...

For sure, it's a bad idea to apply strategy that can work under one rule set in to another sport in which it's a very bad idea.

But we are talking sports here and rule sets.

BKR
7/07/2016 2:50pm,
Ninja Please! I make fun of Judo players when ever possible. For instance, they flop to their knees more than catholic girls after a few drinks.......

Yeach I think Toquino passed twice. One of the times he really didnt like what Eddie was wranglin' from side control/knee in belly and bailed on the position. Which is crazy! How good are you if you can just make dudes jump back from a dominant position because you start setting something up from side control? The dudes are are awesome.
I have been watching Eddie,Gordons and Gary's heelhook game in amazement. I don't understand why people even try to pass on the inside on them. I would think there would be people attempting all torendo and leg dragging.
The only inside passing players that seem to get by are Keenan and Toquino. Keenan slices through Gary's guard like butter generally. It's pretty crazy really.

LOL, I make fun of judoka for dropping and flopping and giving their backs...in judo matches...

goodlun
7/07/2016 3:34pm,
I always find it interesting things like the Donkey Guard catches so much ****, but we good old butt flopping gets a pass.
The whole no reaping the knees bullshit gets a pass.
Limiting leg submissions because they are harder to roll out of because of gi fabric gets a pass.

The solution is simple:
If you want to prove your Grappling works for self defense, show up to a Gathering of the Pack.
If you want to prove it works in a fight schedule a MMA match.
If you want to prove it works against other grapplers schedule a pro-jujitsu style match (20 min sub only).
If you want to prove you are better at playing the BJJ game then go do ibjjf style match.

BTW Polaris 3 was a very good event.

ChenPengFi
7/07/2016 3:44pm,
I always find it interesting things like the Donkey Guard catches so much ****, but we good old butt flopping gets a pass.
The whole no reaping the knees bullshit gets a pass.
Limiting leg submissions because they are harder to roll out of because of gi fabric gets a pass.

The solution is simple:
If you want to prove your Grappling works for self defense, show up to a Gathering of the Pack.
If you want to prove it works in a fight schedule a MMA match.
If you want to prove it works against other grapplers schedule a pro-jujitsu style match (20 min sub only).
If you want to prove you are better at playing the BJJ game then go do ibjjf style match.

BTW Polaris 3 was a very good event.

If you feel donkey guard mimics a situation you might find yourself needing to defend yourself in, well, I'll try not to judge your lifestyle choices too harshly.

goodlun
7/07/2016 3:48pm,
If you feel donkey guard mimics a situation you might find yourself needing to defend yourself in, well, I'll try not to judge your lifestyle choices too harshly.

Someone attacks you from behind, you get knocked forward you catch yourself by putting your hand on the ground, and since you know donkey guard you shoot your feet back then roll them into a knee bar?
Its a lot more "street" than just falling to your ass.

ChenPengFi
7/07/2016 3:54pm,
Someone attacks you from behind, you get knocked forward you catch yourself by putting your hand on the ground, and since you know donkey guard you shoot your feet back then roll them into a knee bar?
Its a lot more "street" than just falling to your ass.


Lol, yeah, that sounds like a super common scenario...

goodlun
7/07/2016 3:59pm,
Lol, yeah, that sounds like a super common scenario...

Truth is I wasn't suggesting it was a "street" move to begin with,you know that whole rant about the different ways to test your grappling, however I would say getting attacked from behind is probably the most common way one is going to be attacked.
You sure as **** are not going to hang out in the donkey guard, you don't even want to hang out in a purely grappling match.
Its a very transitional position.

ChenPengFi
7/07/2016 4:29pm,
Haha, ok is it street or not?
Please make up your mind.
It *is* ridiculous and you're not likely to recover from a shove and turn it into a kneebar.
I think that's more of a counter than a "guard" in any case.
Falling on your ass is pretty common fyi, street or not.
Knowing how to defend or recover from that position is very valuable.

Even the name "donkey guard" accepts the ridiculousness of it all.

goodlun
7/07/2016 4:50pm,
Haha, ok is it street or not?
It is not, it certainly wouldn't turn around on the street and give up your back in hopes of pulling off a move from donkey guard.
Hell Donkey Guard is dangerous in a grappling match.
It is no less or street than a lot of other stuff that gets a pass like butt flopping, deep half guard, quater guard, ect.... all stuff that more or less gets a free pass.
These things can work on the street even if its not ideal.



It *is* ridiculous and you're not likely to recover from a shove and turn it into a kneebar.

Donkey Guard is entered from the tripod position. Entering it from a shove isn't "ridiculous".



I think that's more of a counter than a "guard" in any case.

I would say Donkey Guard is more akin to a clinch than a guard really.



Falling on your ass is pretty common fyi, street or not.
Knowing how to defend or recover from that position is very valuable.


It is, and one of the great things about BJJ is its practitioners work on starting in bad positions and transitioning out of them.
I am not saying one shouldn't know how to do a technical stand up or how to but scout around to be in a position to do a technical stand up or to enter into grappling.
I am saying that one shouldn't just flop down on there ass in the street.
That argument is akin to the arguments that are used against things like the worm guard or the Donkey guard.



Even the name "donkey guard" accepts the ridiculousness of it all.

Agreed it is ridiculous but its now a part of the sport, and people need to stop whining about it ridiculousness because there is a lot of ridiculousness in pure grappling.

BKR
7/07/2016 7:10pm,
Someone attacks you from behind, you get knocked forward you catch yourself by putting your hand on the ground, and since you know donkey guard you shoot your feet back then roll them into a knee bar?
Its a lot more "street" than just falling to your ass.

Who would just fall on their ass if they were not surprised from behind and knocked down? Apples and oranges.

I'm betting you would have a hard time finding a legit BJJ black belt that would suggest pulling guard in a self defense situation as first choice.

ChenPengFi
7/07/2016 7:38pm,
Who would just fall on their ass if they were not surprised from behind and knocked down?


https://commandoboxing.com/images/streetfight.jpg

I'm guessing his guard is **** too.