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View Full Version : Is Judo the "current Kitō-ryū official successor"?



RedCelt
2/01/2016 11:22am,
Hello all! A rather specific doubt that was raised when I ended up on the Kito-ryu wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kit%C5%8D-ry%C5%AB); one of the references had a wrong URL, something that bothered me so I decided to at leas fix that. The document in question is Kano's "Roppo no kuzushi lesson", which does include the following:
Soon after this episode the master gave me the diploma of Kito-ryu, the densho and all the hallows belonging to the school. I received in this way the authority of the ryuNow, this is all good and proper but does it mean that Judo is the "official successor" of Kito-ryu? Certainly it can be considered at least *one* successor, but (and perhaps I'm overthinking this) to be described in such definitive terms it would require that a) nobody else received equivalent scrolls and b) no extant Kito-ryu jujutsu school exists today hat has a "valid" lineage. Any thoughts?

BKR
2/01/2016 11:40am,
Hello all! A rather specific doubt that was raised when I ended up on the Kito-ryu wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kit%C5%8D-ry%C5%AB); one of the references had a wrong URL, something that bothered me so I decided to at leas fix that. The document in question is Kano's "Roppo no kuzushi lesson", which does include the following:Now, this is all good and proper but does it mean that Judo is the "official successor" of Kito-ryu? Certainly it can be considered at least *one* successor, but (and perhaps I'm overthinking this) to be described in such definitive terms it would require that a) nobody else received equivalent scrolls and b) no extant Kito-ryu jujutsu school exists today hat has a "valid" lineage. Any thoughts?

There were several ryu-ha of Kito Ryu, which is basically dead and gone now. That's my understanding at least.

So no, Kodokan Judo is not the "successor" or one of the "succesor's" of Kito Ryu Ju Jutsu.

Let's think for a minute...Kano was how old when he founded the Kodokan ? 21 ? So he got full transmission of Kito Ryu...while going to school..etc etc etc... gotta wonder just how much there was left of Kito Ryu at that time in history. For a hint, look at what's left in Judo...the Koshiki No Kata, aka Kito Ryu No Kata.

speedycerviche
2/03/2016 8:33pm,
The current representative of kito ryu according to the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai is Inoue Shoji. The last successor of kito ryu that I can find died in 1966. Judo is not and cannot be the successor, it does not make any sense to say it is. Judo has subsumed part of kito ryu that is all. As far as I am lead to believe Jigoro Kano did not even receive a menkyo kaiden in kito ryu.

BKR
2/04/2016 4:07pm,
The current representative of kito ryu according to the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai is Inoue Shoji. The last successor of kito ryu that I can find died in 1966. Judo is not and cannot be the successor, it does not make any sense to say it is. Judo has subsumed part of kito ryu that is all. As far as I am lead to believe Jigoro Kano did not even receive a menkyo kaiden in kito ryu.

No, I think he got menkyo kaiden in Kito Ryu, but not in Tenjin shin'yo Ryu. In any case, menkyo does not equal successor of lineage.

speedycerviche
2/05/2016 1:20am,
No, I think he got menkyo kaiden in Kito Ryu, but not in Tenjin shin'yo Ryu. In any case, menkyo does not equal successor of lineage.

Well I just read his certificate and from what I can read it says menkyo and not menkyokaiden and permission to teach not total transmission but I find some of it hard to read. https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%9F%94%E9%81%93#/media/File:Kano_kitoryu_judo_menjo.jpg

Depends on the school I have heard in some cases menkyokaiden does indeed equal that. I believe that muso jikiden eishin ryu is like that which is why there are some many independent lines of that school.

BKR
2/05/2016 1:21pm,
Well I just read his certificate and from what I can read it says menkyo and not menkyokaiden and permission to teach not total transmission but I find some of it hard to read. https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%9F%94%E9%81%93#/media/File:Kano_kitoryu_judo_menjo.jpg

Depends on the school I have heard in some cases menkyokaiden does indeed equal that. I believe that muso jikiden eishin ryu is like that which is why there are some many independent lines of that school.


Whatever the truth is, I think if we consider how young Kano was and how long he had done Kito Ryu, "full transmission" is a bit suspect, as would be true skill level.

It's kinda moot in the first place, LOL !