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View Full Version : Quebec Open Judo ...Now with Ne Waza Divisions



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BKR
10/29/2015 7:14pm,
So I was looking for info on the Quebec Open, to which one of my students is traveling to compete and then train at the training camp.

Lo and behold, I find out... they have a ne waza division and rules...
http://www.judo-quebec.qc.ca/images/Quebecopen2015_versionanglaise.pdf tournament "flyer"

Ne waza division rules... scroll down in the .pdf for the English version, unless you read French.

http://www.judo-quebec.qc.ca/images/Reglement_NeWaza.pdf

Interesting set of rules...

Any comments ?

DCS
10/29/2015 7:40pm,
Interesting set of rules...

Any comments ?

I like the osaekomi scoring system. I have to think about the other elements.

(BTW, the Spanish translation is awful)

MisterMR
10/30/2015 3:55am,
I like the osaekomi scoring system.

I think that the osaekomi score too few, it is practically impossible to win just by osae komi, but in judo in theory osae komi techniques are supposed to be on an equal level to other submission techniques, so there should be some sort of osae komi ippon.

Also, I understand and welcome the penalties for turtling, but not the penalties for "staying inside the legs". If I stay inside the legs of my opponent and he can't turn me or submit me then he is doing something wrong!

Finally, bonus points for braking a turtle make no sense to me, it would be better to increase the penalty for the turtles. This is because in any context outside a judo match turtling is meaningless and suicidal, and as a consequence techniques to turn the turtle are useless also.

Also spracht MisterMr.

BKR
10/30/2015 11:14am,
I like the osaekomi scoring system. I have to think about the other elements.

(BTW, the Spanish translation is awful)

I just skimmed through it, going to check it out now. I'll be curious to see how popular the division is. The regular judo part is a huge shiai that draws a lot of competitors. Quebec is the center for Judo in Canada.

BKR
10/30/2015 11:22am,
Some of the stuff is kinda vague. passing guard...open or closed..penalties for staying in a guys legs for too long (closed guard?) but not for using closed guard to stall ?

If a choke or armbar is properly applied, it works...

So if a guy turtles, what if you hold and control him while he is in turtle and cant' escape ? Guy on bottom is stalling ? I don't think so...they don't mention being flattend out on bottom, either, so I guess you can stall all day there.

Points for turning turtel, OK, but with or without control ? I envision a sort of Freestyle "back exposure" type of situation. And does the guy who is turtled get penalized while being attacked/rolled ?

Anyway, I'd say get rid of the improving position points, too complicated, but keep the osaekomi limits and scores, plus ippon via submission as usual.

Raycetpfl
10/30/2015 11:45am,
Some of the stuff is kinda vague. passing guard...open or closed..penalties for staying in a guys legs for too long (closed guard?) but not for using closed guard to stall ?

If a choke or armbar is properly applied, it works...

So if a guy turtles, what if you hold and control him while he is in turtle and cant' escape ? Guy on bottom is stalling ? I don't think so...they don't mention being flattend out on bottom, either, so I guess you can stall all day there.

Points for turning turtel, OK, but with or without control ? I envision a sort of Freestyle "back exposure" type of situation. And does the guy who is turtled get penalized while being attacked/rolled ?

Anyway, I'd say get rid of the improving position points, too complicated, but keep the osaekomi limits and scores, plus ippon via submission as usual.

Guard in bjj is not passed until you are passed their legs. regardless of the legs being open or closed you need to pass them to score.
The turtle position is a "guard" of sorts so passing points are given if you flip them and are in knee in belly/side control.
This sounds neat. I always am curious of new rule sets and what style they will develop. I do like the longer times it takes for pinning scores. In bjj it's 3 secods

Bar Humbug
10/30/2015 11:51am,
If a choke or armbar is properly applied, it works...

That's the standout issue from my viewing, seems like they would reward submission attempts that are half-heartened or lack real potency/technique in an effort to build points e.g. a collar choke from Kesa for the bonus point

BKR
10/30/2015 11:58am,
That's the standout issue from my viewing, seems like they would reward submission attempts that are half-heartened or lack real potency/technique in an effort to build points e.g. a collar choke from Kesa for the bonus point

The issue as a referee is to decide whether or not something would have been effective (or not). You can get into position for a choke, have your hands in place, but it did not really have a chance to work, which is what you are essentially pointing out.

Things need to be clear cut for scoring purposes for both the refs and the competitors.

BKR
10/30/2015 12:02pm,
Guard in bjj is not passed until you are passed their legs. regardless of the legs being open or closed you need to pass them to score.
The turtle position is a "guard" of sorts so passing points are given if you flip them and are in knee in belly/side control.
This sounds neat. I always am curious of new rule sets and what style they will develop. I do like the longer times it takes for pinning scores. In bjj it's 3 secods

Yeah, I get having to be past the legs to score. I'd like to see some other sort of control necessary. Knee in belly and side control are pins (osaekomi), although knee on belly (aka Uki Gatame in Judo-speak) does not score as a pin. Side control (yoko shiho gatame) does. The rules as I read them reward simply "turning the turtle". Which reminds me of back exposure points in Freestyle wrestling.

If the turn has to result in a control position, OK, otherwise, it's not so hot IMO.

In any case, I dont' know what participation is like under those rules in Quebec. I know my student is in the regular u18 division, IJF rules.

Raycetpfl
10/30/2015 12:09pm,
Yeah, I get having to be past the legs to score. I'd like to see some other sort of control necessary. Knee in belly and side control are pins (osaekomi), although knee on belly (aka Uki Gatame in Judo-speak) does not score as a pin. Side control (yoko shiho gatame) does. The rules as I read them reward simply "turning the turtle". Which reminds me of back exposure points in Freestyle wrestling.

If the turn has to result in a control position, OK, otherwise, it's not so hot IMO.

In any case, I dont' know what participation is like under those rules in Quebec. I know my student is in the regular u18 division, IJF rules.

Ibjj you have to have control once guard is passed. So a pass is worth two points and then where you passed to scores. Let's say I pass straight to mount. The pass gets 2 ,mount gets 4. If I pass to side control or KOB I get 2 for the past 2 for the control. So the way I figured the turtle thing would be the same, points for the flip and than I would score for the pin as described in the pinning section.

BKR
10/30/2015 12:27pm,
Ibjj you have to have control once guard is passed. So a pass is worth two points and then where you passed to scores. Let's say I pass straight to mount. The pass gets 2 ,mount gets 4. If I pass to side control or KOB I get 2 for the past 2 for the control. So the way I figured the turtle thing would be the same, points for the flip and than I would score for the pin as described in the pinning section.

Makes sense. I just would hate to see turtle turning with no subsequent control. The way I read the rules, just passing legs gets points. I can see some room for gaming the rules on that one.

Raycetpfl
10/30/2015 12:29pm,
Losing by an advantage for a near pass when you have made someone wheeze and gag with chokes but they Houdini'ed out of them somehow really sucks.
Obviously it's ref discretion and that can get shaky but I feel it's pretty easy to tell a legit sub attempt from nonsense that's not close. I like the idea of sub attempt points. It creates the right kind of action.

Ming Loyalist
10/30/2015 12:41pm,
those rules are terribad.

1) starting from the knees is stupid. this is judo, start from the feet and get rid of ippon, just give points for the takedown.
2) ditch advantage points, as has been said, if an armbar or choke is properly applied, it works.
3) the stalling rules need serious work on their clarity.

this is giving the ref *way* too much discretion in making the calls based on the vague rules. i get what they are trying to do, but scrap this and start over IMO.

BKR
10/30/2015 1:06pm,
those rules are terribad.

1) starting from the knees is stupid. this is judo, start from the feet and get rid of ippon, just give points for the takedown.
2) ditch advantage points, as has been said, if an armbar or choke is properly applied, it works.
3) the stalling rules need serious work on their clarity.

this is giving the ref *way* too much discretion in making the calls based on the vague rules. i get what they are trying to do, but scrap this and start over IMO.

Giving modern judo refs discretion over ne waza situations is...usually not a good idea, LOL !

And I pretty much agree with you. Starting standing though would negate the whole idea of a ne waza tournament. Maybe something like doing away with pulling guard penalties and that stupid one knee down equals ne waza rule. More like Kosen format, but no ippon for a throw. The issue with starting standing is that it could turn into a protracted standing battle, so do you enforce the usual (mostly) crappy gripping and non-combativity penalties too ?

The idea of knee wrestling isn't too appealing, though...

NeilG
10/30/2015 1:10pm,
Starting standing gives the tachi-waza specialists too big of an edge in my opinion.

Ming Loyalist
10/30/2015 1:20pm,
i dunno, as one of my dojo's "newaza guys" i still wouldn't find this ruleset very interesting TBH. i'd rather go compete in NAGA.

as to starting standing giving too much of an edge to the tachiwaza guys, for one why would they even enter this if they don't want to get into extended newaza battles, and also it could be solved by allowing certain types of guard pulling and penalizing standing up out of newaza to disengage.