View Full Version : A question concerning the three stages of Xingyiquan

8/04/2015 3:10am,
Hey everyone,

So I have a question when it comes to Xingyiquan. I've been doing it for a while, on top of studying and learning everything that I can about it (I love it!). A lot of what I read from the older books and from what the old masters wrote about it is vague and difficult to understand (though I'm pretty sure it's meant to be). I've spoken to the man that I'm learning from, and he is a very physical person and doesn't look at Xingyiquan as anything more then a physical, external out, he doesn't treat, or think of it as an internal art.

Now, I understand and grasp the first two levels within Xingyi (Ming Jin and An Jin), though the way that Hua Jin has been explained to me, I'm confused. I've had one person tell me it's when you gain master of your Yi (Intent) and you don't have to do anything physically, you can strike without striking physically, the Yi manifesting the "shape" you want to strike with. I've had another person tell me that if someone as much as touches you, that they will bounce off of you. I've had another man tell me that it's when you can absorb and dissolve any strike done to you, on any part of your body.

Can someone who has some knowledge here please help? I've been told this isn't just for Xingyi, that this happens in Tajiquan and Bagua too. I was actually advised if I want to learn this sooner that I should actually take up Tajiquan with my Xingyi, as I was told Tajiquan starts training Hua Jin from the beginning. Would any of you say that this is an accurate statement? If so, what system of taji would you recommend to best learn this? I know for a fact I have a place that teaches Yang and Chen tajiquan close to where I live.

Anyway, hope someone here has someone information.


8/04/2015 1:56pm,
Don't worry about it. You'll see it when it happens, and it's all physical. Just imagine the dog drooling when he hears the bell. That's what they're really talking about.

Ice Hole
8/04/2015 7:14pm,

Hua Jin: elastic strength, twisting strength. The mystique of change, the wonder of dissolving. One fist needs to develop a dragon's waist, to twist and turn 龍腰擰扭, to use opposing energy 用阻力 and to hit slowly. The steps are lively, and able to move in a zig zag triangle, and its applications come from the 12 forms. The five fists contain more than six ways of disappating the opponents energy. The form contains six changes and the fists attacks in eight directions. 所謂「式含六變,拳打八方。」 The classics state, "Cleanse and empty the inside, lighten the body, the signs that indicate the interior is clean and empty : the flow of the shen and qi can be used, moving in a circle without hindering the moving and turning of the body, and one is as light as a feather". Hua jin is not divided into bright or dark, hard or soft. Ming jin is Yang, An Jin is Yin, thus Hua Jin is mixing of Yin and Yang with Ying and Yang interpenetrating each other. The Shen and the intention has penetrated the whole body, washing the bone marrow, this is training the Shen to return to emptiness.

The three jin, from a theoretical perspective are divided as above. Thus, Ming Jin is jin or power that is easily seen, An jin is hidden and cannot easily be detected. Ha jin is negating the enemy's force and returning it to the enemy. During the training process, each level of training of the five elements has a strict demarcation. Like hand work, foot work, body method, each fist has a unique and fixed training method. It is a complete and complicated process. Ming jin is in the hands, the an jin is in the elbows, hua jin is in the body. Ming jin is hard, an jin is soft, hua jin is elastic. Ming jin trains the Jing, An jin trains the Qi and Hua jin trains the Shen. Ming Jin goes out and returns in a straight line, An jin only begins when stillness reaches its zenith, Hua Jin remains inside and is not revealed. Ming Jin uses power, An Jin uses jin, and Hua Jin uses the intention. Finally they all interpentrate each other, shifting the soft to the hard and shifting the hard to the soft. Hua jin is complete control of Ming jin and An jin, mixed into one body.

8/04/2015 7:51pm,
Up one for Rivington.

A great teacher gives you just enough that you can handle, but that it will take time for you to do your own chewing and digestion.

Whether we are talking about too much philosophizing (e.g. these jins are real/false/whatever), too many movements (e.g. trying to learn and remember more movements than ready for) is the same. So if you ask too many questions or questions beyond your level, they might not explain it to you to keep you focused on what you are still working on.

Great teacher can see where you are at and knows what adjustment it takes to get you to progress.

If you aren't progressing toward your goals, it's also student responsibility to ask questions of the teacher and give feedback about your learning process.

If you still don't see any progress toward your goals, you might need a new teacher or a new attitude as a student (or maybe some of both).

8/04/2015 9:18pm,
Thank you both very much for the reply to this post. I'm getting more of an understanding of this. Please correct me if my understanding as of so far is wrong.

From what I read from here, and from other source material, it seems that Hua Jin is the understanding and mastery of both of the previous levels. The first level being more physical, what happens from training and learning; more external. The next level being more perfected of the first stage of training. From repetition, from building on this foundation you learn the more detailed aspects of the movements that can often be overlooked when learning the movements originally.

From here, I've read a lot that Yi directs the Shen/Spirit, so that the cultivation of the Yi and Shen are important to achieve this, though they are trained through out the entire practice anyway. Now, when it speaks "dragons waste", what does this mean exactly? I mean, the Dragon form does have a lip of waste/hip movement, though I'm not sure if this is what it means.

Thanks again to the both of you for replying.

8/05/2015 11:39pm,
I made a response to this, it just ins't showing up. Oh well.

Thank you both for your responses to my question. Following what you said Rabbit, can you explain what a Dragons Waste is? Would it be developed simply from waste movements that are in the system as a whole? Such as from the sinking and waste movements of the Dragon form, the waste movements of the Tou form/Crocodile/Water Strider form?

Again, thank you very much.