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Gosai
5/11/2015 10:36pm,
http://i.imgur.com/c4pKsqP.jpg?1

Meh, on an impulse I decided to do a broad search for 'Kung Fu' in the nearest reasonably sized city to me (Toledo) and the first result I get is 'Temple of the Dragon'... these fellows.

http://templeofthedragon.com/

Also, they have a Youtube page: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUWFLk7oD3pEusYu3Ng5e0A

Now, like anybody who's watched old Shaw Brothers flicks, the idea of learning Kung Fu is appealing to me, and it IS about the same distance as my Judo class (not that I've any plans on stopping that'n.) But being as I have such little experience in martial arts in general, and CMA in particular (In fact, I have none in that last one) I thought I'd see what sort of impressions they give to you fellows.

For those not wanting to sift through the website: They're a Kung Fu school offering: Tai Chi, Hsing I, Pakua, Shaolin and Shuai Chiao in

And Programs that include...

Introductory Course (2 Days)

Trial - Two Kung Fu or Tai Chi classes per Week

Premium Trial - Same as above, but also one weekly Shaolin Yoga class and Weekly Semi-Private tutoring

Disciple - Three Kung Fu or Tai Chi classes per week, Two Shaolin yoga classes, bag conditioning, Meditation class, weekly semi-private tutoring and a 'Quarterly private discussion with head instructor'

Mastery - Up to four Kung Fu or Tai Chi classes per week, Two Shaolin Yoga classes, bag conditioning, meditation, Once a Month mastery program round table discussion, once a month mastery program workout, quarterly private discussion with head instructor, weekly semi private tutoring

And Boot Camp which is trying their Kung Fu or Tai Chi at a one or three month program.

Apparently they only charge about $40 a month, and emphasis themselves as 'Traditional Kung Fu'. So, I have no idea how much of what I just saw there is tpical of Kung Fu studios or not...

Southpaw
5/12/2015 9:51am,
I've watched the video and checked out the website.

Here's my recommendation:

1. Decide how many hours you want to train kung fu...this I assume is in addition to the hours you train Judo.

2. Take the hours you've decided to train kung fu, and instead of training kung fu, use those hours towards training more judo.

3. Continue watching Shaw Brothers films as they are awesome entertainment...but don't use them as a guide for what you should be training.

4. Live in peace with the fact that you are training a functional martial art.


Now go train young grasshopper.

Ming Loyalist
5/12/2015 12:44pm,
southpaw is correct.

i would generally say that just about anyone who is really interested in kung fu should pursue at least shodan in judo *first*, and then only study kung fu under a teacher who hopefully has a verifiable record of *full contact* fighting (lei tai or sanda.) at the very least they should be putting students into full contact fights and hopefully not losing too much.

this guy says he does shuai jiao, but good shuai jiao is hard to find, so he could be decent, but the odds are not good.

The Cap
5/12/2015 4:18pm,
this guy says he does shuai jiao, but good shuai jiao is hard to find, so he could be decent, but the odds are not good.


And it looks like those odds are getting worse every minute.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnOEQo6Akx0

I'd advise you pass. Watch the video and listen to his instruction. He first advises his students to break the fall not by slapping, but by bracing their heads with their arm. Taking the fall on an arm bent that far is an easy way to dislocate the elbow and not something an experienced teacher would ever advise.

After that he corrects a hip throw by emphasizing an upward arm movement when the woman should really have just been entering her a little hips further and pulling her partner's chest tighter to her. I could have driven a truck in the space between her and uke, an easy problem to fix.

This doesn't inspire confidence that the instructor is terribly competent in the arts he teaches. Going there from judo, you're likely to be rather disappointed.

ghost55
5/12/2015 4:37pm,
I took a fall on my elbow last month during MMA sparring. My elbow is still fucked up. This is your daily reminder to ukemi properly.

Ming Loyalist
5/12/2015 4:45pm,
And it looks like those odds are getting worse every minute.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnOEQo6Akx0

I'd advise you pass. Watch the video and listen to his instruction. He first advises his students to break the fall not by slapping, but by bracing their heads with their arm. Taking the fall on an arm bent that far is an easy way to dislocate the elbow and not something an experienced teacher would ever advise.

i don't like the way his students are falling, and i don't like the way he covers his head much, but it is true that in shuai jiao they take a different approach to breakfalls where you do use your arm to protect your head.

i don't need to get into a long discussion about which method i prefer (i am a judoka now, so it should be obvious) but just am saying that *actual shuai jiao practitioners* can take some pretty hard falls without slapping.

back to the point, this place looks like a terrible choice for someone who wants to learn to fight, OP don't go there.

W. Rabbit
5/12/2015 5:22pm,
This is bad Judo, NOT good shuai jiao. Agree with Ming...there are OTHER WAYS to dissipate the force of falling besides what you might learn in judo ukemi....this is NOT IT. This is "ooh look we throw and hit the mat too!".

Loud noises! != throwing/landing skill.

Am I bad in that the moment I see a pony tail I get suspicious? (NO offense, Ming).

I'm sorry. I'm going to review this school in more detail..starting now.

Funny enough the "related videos" actually show MUCH better shuai jiao


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5E0OcUA6rv8

BKR
5/12/2015 7:30pm,
This is bad Judo, NOT good shuai jiao. Agree with Ming...there are OTHER WAYS to dissipate the force of falling besides what you might learn in judo ukemi....this is NOT IT. This is "ooh look we throw and hit the mat too!".

Loud noises! != throwing/landing skill.

Am I bad in that the moment I see a pony tail I get suspicious? (NO offense, Ming).

I'm sorry. I'm going to review this school in more detail..starting now.

Funny enough the "related videos" actually show MUCH better shuai jiao


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5E0OcUA6rv8

yeah, no need to slap when doing ukemi. Judo ukemi is specifically for tatami/mats. Not sure how it developed, that would be interesting historical study.

The slap is more of a mnemonic device for body positioning. Slapping on a hard surface hurt like hell, and if the surface isn't smooth, can screw up your arm badly.

And, yeah, bad to moderately OK Judo (O Goshi more or less). The whole context of the drill is contrived, and uke are not really making a decent attack.

He does have them rotating to the top of the triangle, though, which is good.

I'd say Osoto Gari/otoshi with a clothesline to the head would be faster and more effective, but hey, I just teach "sport" Judo.

Gosai
5/12/2015 7:54pm,
Well, looks like a pretty unanimous consensus from the posters so far. I'll just Sig out my old flicks... and given the dearth of things I need to correct in Judo (among which is a habit of posting with my arm during a fall) I think I may just apply the "tally up the hours you would have spent in Kung Fu, then spend them doing more judo" approach.

The Cap
5/12/2015 8:23pm,
i don't like the way his students are falling, and i don't like the way he covers his head much, but it is true that in shuai jiao they take a different approach to breakfalls where you do use your arm to protect your head.

i don't need to get into a long discussion about which method i prefer (i am a judoka now, so it should be obvious) but just am saying that *actual shuai jiao practitioners* can take some pretty hard falls without slapping.

This is bad Judo, NOT good shuai jiao. Agree with Ming...there are OTHER WAYS to dissipate the force of falling besides what you might learn in judo ukemi....this is NOT IT. This is "ooh look we throw and hit the mat too!".
yeah, no need to slap when doing ukemi. Judo ukemi is specifically for tatami/mats. Not sure how it developed, that would be interesting historical study.

The slap is more of a mnemonic device for body positioning. Slapping on a hard surface hurt like hell, and if the surface isn't smooth, can screw up your arm badly.


What you guys say is true, the slap is to help remind people to distribute their weight during a fall, and you don't need to slap to fall softly. But that bent-elbow-by-the-head position is one I've been accidentally caught in going over sumi gaeshi, and can unfortunately tell you from experience is no good for the elbow.



He does have them rotating to the top of the triangle, though, which is good.


I don't recognize the concept you're alluding to here. Mind explaining it to me?



(among which is a habit of posting with my arm during a fall)


NO



I think I may just apply the "tally up the hours you would have spent in Kung Fu, then spend them doing more judo" approach.


YES

Ming Loyalist
5/13/2015 9:23pm,
Am I bad in that the moment I see a pony tail I get suspicious? (NO offense, Ming).


i haven't had a ponytail since before 1999

W. Rabbit
5/14/2015 10:21am,
i haven't had a ponytail since before 1999

How did I know?

Anyways...there's no indication this is a "fighting" kung fu school. It appears to be a school that focuses on the basics of Tai Chi, but nothing close to the full curriculum.

I can't even find real, alive shuai jiao practice anywhere...so I believe this school stops at the drilling phase. If there's anything else

Watch these rolls. There are bad habits showing here, not the least of which is my old favorite,

"I'm going to throw myself into the air, as opposed to gracefully introduce myself the ground". I guess it's a matter of torque, but you can see what I mean in the first few here. Great way to hurt yourself (at least at the ToD level of skill).

In contrast, most Judo and BJJ schools will teach far better and safer rolling skills than what you see below:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPx-UsbxBZQ

Anyway in summary, these rolls over the shinai seem to be the MOST CHALLENGING thing I've seen from them on video. If there's more out there, I can't find it.

W. Rabbit
5/14/2015 10:25am,
Here's a much better Shuai Jiao school in Beijing, and their own training methods (mix of traditional and modern), but note the enormous difference in physique, training challenge, and technique refinement.

I don't like to point out people's physiques, but a lot of the people in the Temple of the Dragon are CLEARLY not in the type of shape required for a quality shuai jiao experience...it's an EXTREMELY PHYSICAL art. Just like Judo and BJJ are.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEjkMbLyAzw

BKR
5/14/2015 11:01am,
How did I know?

Anyways...there's no indication this is a "fighting" kung fu school. It appears to be a school that focuses on the basics of Tai Chi, but nothing close to the full curriculum.

I can't even find real, alive shuai jiao practice anywhere...so I believe this school stops at the drilling phase. If there's anything else

Watch these rolls. There are bad habits showing here, not the least of which is my old favorite,

"I'm going to throw myself into the air, as opposed to gracefully introduce myself the ground". I guess it's a matter of torque, but you can see what I mean in the first few here. Great way to hurt yourself (at least at the ToD level of skill).

In contrast, most Judo and BJJ schools will teach far better and safer rolling skills than what you see below:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPx-UsbxBZQ

Anyway in summary, these rolls over the shinai seem to be the MOST CHALLENGING thing I've seen from them on video. If there's more out there, I can't find it.

I'd say that drill is a bit too advanced for some of them, and they need to take a step back and work on more basic stuff. Like, how to actually do a zempo kaiten ukemi instead of a somersault or a botched round-off.

That's their instructors fault.

judoka_uk
5/14/2015 6:38pm,
yeah, no need to slap when doing ukemi. Judo ukemi is specifically for tatami/mats. Not sure how it developed, that would be interesting historical study.

The slap is more of a mnemonic device for body positioning. Slapping on a hard surface hurt like hell, and if the surface isn't smooth, can screw up your arm badly.

As usual Ben is spot on here, the slap with the arm is incidental to good breakfall technique, not the arbiter of it.




I don't recognize the concept you're alluding to here. Mind explaining it to me?

This is likely what Ben was refering to

http://thedifficultway.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01/triangle.html

BKR
5/14/2015 6:41pm,
As usual Ben is spot on here, the slap with the arm is incidental to good breakfall technique, not the arbiter of it.



This is likely what Ben was refering to

http://thedifficultway.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01/triangle.html

LOL, out of the shadows...

Yup, that's it. I bet the Cap is slapping his forehead now...