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nihao
4/28/2015 5:57am,
Why is WingChun different to other styles? I mean what other kung fu style only has straight arm punching as strikes? Other sourthern styles like Hung Gar or choy li fut all contain many strikes. Or White crane from which Wing Chun claims ancestry to doesn'trely on arm punching.

White Crane: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58kQyDenvo0

hung Gar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knviCtbakG4

Wing Chun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4O6WoWuJ4U

ghost55
4/28/2015 6:50am,
Because it's for pussies?

gold_ax666
4/28/2015 9:20am,
In my experience I have found that Wing Chun is spelled using different letters of the alphabet in a different order to other martial arts like karate or MMA etc.

Guird
4/28/2015 9:34am,
Why is WingChun different to other styles? I mean what other kung fu style only has straight arm punching as strikes? Other sourthern styles like Hung Gar or choy li fut all contain many strikes. Or White crane from which Wing Chun claims ancestry to doesn'trely on arm punching.

White Crane: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58kQyDenvo0

hung Gar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knviCtbakG4

Wing Chun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4O6WoWuJ4U

The in-depth trapping we see from wing chun reminds me a lot of the binding I've seen from HEMA guys. This made me think maybe WC was never meant to be an unarmed art, and treating it as such has been a big, long mistake. However, from what I've seen even most weapon arts turn their hip into strike with their weapon. My experience with weapons is very limited, and nonexistent with knives, so correct me if I'm wrong, but this excuse doesn't convince me anymore.

The only remaining thing I can come up with is that WC is just terrible, no excuses. Made up without pressure testing, perpetuated to the present day by ignorance and cinema. People come up with their own bullshit styles all the time these days. who's to say WC isn't just a Thomas Daw-ish brain fart that got lucky?

If a number of fighters consistently win with arm-punching I will have to concede that WC has something. Until then, as the very things that make WC recognizable directly contradict what is known to be effective, I sit firmly in the camp that says 'don't chun, just don't'.

It really seems to me that for WC to be able to keep up with other MAs, it needs to change itself to a degree where it becomes completely unrecognizable.

gold_ax666
4/28/2015 10:33am,
The in-depth trapping we see from wing chun reminds me a lot of the binding I've seen from HEMA guys. This made me think maybe WC was never meant to be an unarmed art, and treating it as such has been a big, long mistake. However, from what I've seen even most weapon arts turn their hip into strike with their weapon. My experience with weapons is very limited, and nonexistent with knives, so correct me if I'm wrong, but this excuse doesn't convince me anymore.

The only remaining thing I can come up with is that WC is just terrible, no excuses. Made up without pressure testing, perpetuated to the present day by ignorance and cinema. People come up with their own bullshit styles all the time these days. who's to say WC isn't just a Thomas Daw-ish brain fart that got lucky?

If a number of fighters consistently win with arm-punching I will have to concede that WC has something. Until then, as the very things that make WC recognizable directly contradict what is known to be effective, I sit firmly in the camp that says 'don't chun, just don't'.

It really seems to me that for WC to be able to keep up with other MAs, it needs to change itself to a degree where it becomes completely unrecognizable.


Bro, nothing is THAT bad!

Southpaw
4/28/2015 2:09pm,
Why is WingChun different to other styles? I mean what other kung fu style only has straight arm punching as strikes? Other sourthern styles like Hung Gar or choy li fut all contain many strikes. Or White crane from which Wing Chun claims ancestry to doesn'trely on arm punching.

White Crane: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58kQyDenvo0

hung Gar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knviCtbakG4

Wing Chun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4O6WoWuJ4U

Just for the record you clearly don't know what you are talking about. Wing Chun has more than just "straight arm punching".

W. Rabbit
4/28/2015 2:33pm,
Because it's for pussies?

Leave this kind of **** post in YMAS, thanks.

That goes for everybody, unless you want CMA trolls in the MMA forum knock it off or at least post decent information, or real questions.

Go read the stickies for a reminder: off-topic bullshit from non-CMAers typically gets moderated out of here. Keep it relevant and informative or at least interesting.

Otherwise I'll just troll the **** out of you for being clueless about the subforum rules.

W. Rabbit
4/28/2015 2:45pm,
This made me think maybe WC was never meant to be an unarmed art, and treating it as such has been a big, long mistake.


Your thinking is wrong.



However, from what I've seen even most weapon arts turn their hip into strike with their weapon. My experience with weapons is very limited, and nonexistent with knives, so correct me if I'm wrong, but this excuse doesn't convince me anymore.


If your experience is limited just stop pontificating on Wing Chun or how you think they train with weapons.



The only remaining thing I can come up with is that WC is just terrible, no excuses. Made up without pressure testing, perpetuated to the present day by ignorance and cinema. People come up with their own bullshit styles all the time these days. who's to say WC isn't just a Thomas Daw-ish brain fart that got lucky?


It wasn't made up without pressure testing. Like a lot of kung fu styles, much of the material gets passed down without proper instruction on pressure testing, or to students that don't advance their own training with enough resistance to become fluid and effective, and they stay in the stiff format we all know and despise.



If a number of fighters consistently win with arm-punching I will have to concede that WC has something. Until then, as the very things that make WC recognizable directly contradict what is known to be effective, I sit firmly in the camp that says 'don't chun, just don't'.


Since this is the CMA forum, stop. You're arguing from ignorance about Wing Chun. It has a lot more than "arm punching". There are very simple, fluid concepts in Wing Chun, but they often get lost in translation and you get a weird perception when watching students of Wing Chun.

It's clear the art is night and day when combined with decent crosstraining, the number of actual fighters/wins increases dramatically, and you find people who do Chun+whatever actually spar, compete, strike really fucking hard.



It really seems to me that for WC to be able to keep up with other MAs, it needs to change itself to a degree where it becomes completely unrecognizable.

No, Wing Chun is Wing Chun. There are plenty of fine, no-nonsense techniques in Wing Chun, including a basic body punches that could floor anybody. But it's not a "complete" style, because it's a subset of a much larger range of regional techniques, that include kicking grappling, throwing, locking etc.

I'll agree, most people nowadays can and probably choose less esoteric means to learn such strikes, and many Wing Chun students will focus on theory and not basic applications like punching someone in the floating rib, which is a fine technique.

W. Rabbit
4/28/2015 3:07pm,
Why is WingChun different to other styles? I mean what other kung fu style only has straight arm punching as strikes? Other sourthern styles like Hung Gar or choy li fut all contain many strikes. Or White crane from which Wing Chun claims ancestry to doesn'trely on arm punching.


It's different because regardless of what anyone has told you, it's a SUBSET of techniques and forms that have Shaolin and non-Shaolin origins. Like all surviving kung fu styles, it's someone's "mix" or "best of" or "hodgepodge" (in this case it's elements of Shaolin Five Animal combined with some regional drift and gentrification in the 19th century by the artisan classes of Southern china).

IF you train a southern CMA long enough esp the others you listed, you'll end up learning stuff that is also in Wing Chun (empty handed forms, training methods, and maybe weapons). But then you'll move past all that and see that what's in Chun is relatively limited.

You'll also begin to realize why Wing Chun became famous for fighting, not because of the style itself, but because of the fighters who utilized the style (who did not train "Wing Chun", they trained various things and became known for being effective with Wing Chun-style strikes).

Wrestling was a common martial art in China, so it's safe to assume the fighters that made all these kung fu styles popular could wrestle with them, use weapons with them, etc. It's only today you find the people who "only Chun" and think it's 100% effective against, say, shoots and takedowns. It's common sense that if the Chunner learns basic sprawls, they're instantly better off than any Chunner that doesn't.

Boxing has it's various types of boxer, so does Chinese boxing and there is a lot of similarity in some cases. Hung ga contains techniques that would fall into both the "swarmer" and "slugger" categories of boxing, Wing Chun's techniques focus on the former. Chun also contains many "internal" techniques to striking because of the animal styles that make it up (Snake and Crane).

What's missing? People who actually realize it's JUST SOME TECHNIQUES, and round out their Wing Chun with everything else a decent cross-trained fighter would need. It doesn't need to "change", and people attempting to "fix" it are deluded. I'm not sure what you'd fix other than not just training Wing Chun with other Wing Chunners. You need to take and learn the Chun and keep moving.

W. Rabbit
4/28/2015 3:28pm,
Here this video will completely explain everything, as will the enormous number of butthurt Chunners that a) can't fight like this and b) claim Wing Chun "isn't this".

They are correct, their shitty Wing Chun isn't like this AT ALL. This way of fighting actually works.

And I secretly think most would **** themselves if they actually had to use their version of Wing Chun against this kind of fighter (a boxer might see a swarmer, a smart Chunner should see an effective "internal" striker, but anybody with a brain can see the effectiveness. It's a simple combination of speed, whipping power, and fluidity (the aspects of Snake and Crane styles).

Wing Chun didn't change to do this, it just needs to ride a person who actually trains to fight, and not somebody who dresses up and does siu lum tao 50 times a day.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RekowrObGTI

Guird
4/28/2015 4:06pm,
guird sucks


you know what, you're right. I don't have sufficient experience with WC to have an opinion worth sharing. I was quite enamored of it for a short while, but the only school I found at the time was just awful. The rest of my experience with it comes from learning some from a friend, and videos, and while I've spent considerable time trying to find redeeming features, it stands to reason that this exposure is insufficient. I've jumped to a conclusion prematurely.

Everything I know about wc, despite wanting to find good things, still points to my aforementioned conclusion though. If you and southpaw could expand on your answers, maybe that will change things? The long list of WC threads is one of the places I've looked for redeeming features, so search function can't help me.

hands on the centreline, defining/charactaristic feature of WC or no? punching without hip torque, definining/charactaristic feature of WC? feet turned far inward, defining feature of WC? Extensive trapping with forearms, defining feature of WC or no? squared hips, defining feature of WC or no?
All the wc I've been exposed to taught all or almost all of these. All exposure I've had to full contact fighting arts taught that these are bad ideas.

It is Fake
4/28/2015 6:38pm,
Why is WingChun different to other styles? I mean what other kung fu style only has straight arm punching as strikes? Other sourthern styles like Hung Gar or choy li fut all contain many strikes. Or White crane from which Wing Chun claims ancestry to doesn'trely on arm punching.

White Crane: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58kQyDenvo0

hung Gar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knviCtbakG4

Wing Chun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4O6WoWuJ4UStop asking questions while trawling youtube. It isn't all that different stylistically.

W. Rabbit
4/28/2015 7:11pm,
hands on the centreline, defining/charactaristic feature of WC or no?


Not really. Another thing you get from the videos but not necessarily the training/techniques.

A lot of people talk about the Siu Nim Tao, the basics.. **** that let's move on.

The 2nd form of Wing Chun is the xun kiu. It can mean "finding a bridge" or even "ancient bridge", because it's supposed to be one of those ancient internal routines, the art of fighters who masted the fluidity and speed of Snake but also the powerful legs, "wings" ie elbows, and wrists of Crane stylists.

The three forms of Chun seem to follow a traditional sequence from the South, from the War/Arrow Pam method at the start of training to Crane techniques involving legwork and turning to evade (what a concept I know), and finally to Snake methods in the Biu ji...the "advanced" techniques.

Keep in mind from a Hung ga perspective, you're missing three whole animal categories including a lot of the grappling, throwing, breaking, jabbing, etc. Then again sifu teaches you Dragon, Tiger, and Leopard...you know who teaches you Snake and Crane.



punching without hip torque, definining/charactaristic feature of WC?


Again I think this is a characteristic of the Wing Chun people you are watching and associating with it.

I have a very simple test as to whether or not Wing Chun will work in any situation: it'll work if you're a well rounded fighter, and maybe really well; otherwise nothing you do will work against another well rounded fighter.



feet turned far inward, defining feature of WC?


Another training mishap, that is the "adduction stance" and it's actually an amazing tension exercise for your inner leg and groin muscles.

I blame the proliferation of this stance in sparring a matter of somebody teaching this stuff having no sparring experience. That stance is an endurance exercise, and for strengthening legwork in the other Southern styles. Only in Chun do you see it abused this way. A sign of poor quality control.



Extensive trapping with forearms, defining feature of WC or no? squared hips, defining feature of WC or no?


The trapping you see in Chun is I think a reliance on the forms for sparring etc, it's inaccurate application.




All the wc I've been exposed to taught all or almost all of these. All exposure I've had to full contact fighting arts taught that these are bad ideas.

Not bad ideas just not the right ideas for EVERY situation. There are times to do all those things above, including the mighty "character two" adduction stance. That is a very interesting and useful body weight exercise when done correctly. It makes your entire groin area incredibly strong.

Timo Nieminen
4/28/2015 8:00pm,
punching without hip torque, definining/charactaristic feature of WC?

No. Good WC people put hip into punches. Even if they say they don't, video will show otherwise. At least in some branches, "no hips!" is big in the teaching.

I think that this comes from the students the teaching methods are aimed at are meant to be somewhat experienced naive fighters. They already know how to punch hard. The goal is to teach them to punch less telegraphically, faster, more efficiently.

Styles where basic teaching focusses on trying to get students to put hip into it aim at students who haven't punched anything before. First, you have to teach them to punch hard. The ideal WC student already knows how to do that.

gold_ax666
4/29/2015 5:18am,
Bro, nothing is THAT bad!

W Rabbit- just curious but why did I get a neg rep for saying nothing is as bad a Daw Ryu?! I mean, seriously it has to be a contender for the most shittiest attempt at an MA ever? Right? RIGHT?!

W. Rabbit
4/29/2015 10:48am,
W Rabbit- just curious but why did I get a neg rep for saying nothing is as bad a Daw Ryu?! I mean, seriously it has to be a contender for the most shittiest attempt at an MA ever? Right? RIGHT?!

You get another one for even talking about that douchebag in the CMA forum. I would give you two for calling it a "ryu" if I could.

SorrY!

Let's stick to the __un.

Went and pulled the first random trending "MMA v Chun" video I could find came up with this.

The Chunner can do ok, after all, when he really wants to. IF that's by fighting MMA guys, godspeed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMbl8xqMdUo