Now now, Deluxe and Gajus "pwn ninjas." Don't burst their bubble, they might start shooting the other kids in their school.

There seems to be a trend that Bujinkan dojos advertising the instruction of "ninjutsu" tend to be the worst, and those stating they teach "budo taijutsu" are on the better end of the spectrum. There are exceptions to both of course, but this is often the case.

I really don't understand the arguement over the choice of titles. Is it archaic because it is in Japanese? Should the Japanese be using English titles now? When referring to a shidoshi, most Buj members do simply refer to "So-and-so sensei" regardless of rank.

Greese1, you know that sensei just refers to someone who has "gone before." You call your math teacher sensei.

Where are the posts of the people who have been there and wish to critisize? Are the people who talk crap about the bujinkan full of more bullshido than the bujinkan itself?

Katana probably has something to say, but he's made it clear he would rather not reveal any names or locations in the interest of "semi-anonymity." Hannibal seems to be a similar case. A lot of opinion is based on various books and videos, and maybe some short interaction with a well-advertised (read: commercial) dojo. Inevitably someone will invoke the powers of a now non-existent koryu.com article and the unshakable testimony of Alex Mordine.

I would rather see specific places of training criticized rather than the whole organization. Often times a group of schools can be traced to a particular shihan who propogates his or her own training philosophies. It seems that Kevin Schnieder's end up pretty level-headed and forthcoming at least. The teachers that I've heard the best things about usually have a very low profile... there is a LOT more out there than most people encounter through casual research.

It sounds like Robert Sanchez really pushes hard-core training and is both an outstanding fighter and teacher. My instructor has brought back a lot from training with him, I'd love to make it out there myself. I've seen Larry Turner once when he attended a seminar with Kevin, amazing to watch but too subtly for me to glean anything at the time (quiet guy too). I've tried looking up all three of these online and have only found passing references.

The above poster is a ninja, why else would he care that ninjas get pwned by myself and gajus? The fact of the matter is that ninjitsu ( Bujinkan,taijutsu, whatever the hell you want to call it) has been repeatedly disscussed on these forums. It is common belief here that it is a load of horseshit. Only the ninjas themselves try to defend it (usually right before getting thier mouths smacked shut)

TheGodDamnMan,
If you were not such a fucking joke, and not a ninja mechanized attack squader, you would have simply used the handy dandy search feature on our wonderful forum and sought all the ninja "talks" your shinobi / power ranger wreaked mind could hope to digest in one swallow.

Oh and btw....

http://www.IMGSpot.com/uploads/2-6897500.jpg

Originally posted by Spunky
Katana probably has something to say, but he's made it clear he would rather not reveal any names or locations in the interest of "semi-anonymity." Hannibal seems to be a similar case. A lot of opinion is based on various books and videos, and maybe some short interaction with a well-advertised (read: commercial) dojo. Inevitably someone will invoke the powers of a now non-existent koryu.com article and the unshakable testimony of Alex Mordine.

The Koryu article in not definitive because much of their previous information has been removed, but there are little pieces of information every now and then that emerge that force a rational person to question the art:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=KOGA+NINJITSU+or+NINJUTSU+ellis&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=eamdur-0201991230280001%40blv-lx107-ip32.nwnexus.net&rnum=3

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=KOGA+NINJITSU+or+NINJUTSU+ellis&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=eamdur-0906991922010001%40blv-pm401-ip28.nwnexus.net&rnum=1

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=KOGA+NINJITSU+or+NINJUTSU+ellis&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=19990810173632.00584.00000348%40ng-bg1.aol.com&rnum=2

http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~mckellar/aiki/2001/5.html

http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9905&L=iaido-l&P=R6422&I=-3

My favorite quote from above:

"Hatsumi's titles to most of the ryuha he claims to be soke for come from Takamatsu Toshitsugu, who in turn claimed to have inherited them from Toda Masamitsu. It's worth noting, in this context, that in the third edition of the *Bugei ryuha daijiten* Watatani Kiyoshi stated that Takamatsu (who was, BTW, a personal friend of his) had created his "ninpo" ryuha and teachings from "ninja-gokko" ("childhood ninja games")."


Of course it's Usenet so you never know, but are these accounts any less credible than some of the stories that Dr. Hatsumi relates from time to time about the Bujinkan? Maybe Shinbushi has some insight to refute some of these people (including a Japanese history professor).

I'm not here to attack Dr. Hatsumi's reputation because I don't know him and he's reputed to be a fine martial artist. I just think that taken in context with everything else wrong in the Bujinkan you have to consider all the data.

Now as to why I don't want to list out my instructors: I happen to like my original instructor. Yes it's true, I like the guy and we trained very hard outdoors in all weather all year round. He was a good instructor. He took his training seriously, took his health seriously, and made sure that the techniques done were as he learned when he was in Japan.

My main problem really came when I began going to other schools and really looking around closely at the entire system. It has systemic training problems, a lot of delusional characters, a cult-like devotion to Dr. Hatsumi, and lack of good hard sparring at full-speed. Do I blame only these instructors? No. I also blame Dr. Hatsumi for allowing this attitude to exist. I'm now taking BJJ and you'll see Helio Grace (Age 91) routinely getting on the mats with people going full force. He hasn't softened up through the years and he damn well expects that people doing BJJ perform and show they can perform routinely. It's a completely different way of running things.


Originally posted by Spunky
I would rather see specific places of training criticized rather than the whole organization. Often times a group of schools can be traced to a particular shihan who propogates his or her own training philosophies. It seems that Kevin Schnieder's end up pretty level-headed and forthcoming at least. The teachers that I've heard the best things about usually have a very low profile... there is a LOT more out there than most people encounter through casual research.

I'm not going to list out specific teachers because I don't want to invite lawsuits. I hold my opinion based on my interactions over time. Yes you are right that Shihan's impose their own philosophy on the students. I've trained though with students from many shihan and see very similar problems in the training (too soft and not alive).


Originally posted by Spunky
It sounds like Robert Sanchez really pushes hard-core training and is both an outstanding fighter and teacher. My instructor has brought back a lot from training with him, I'd love to make it out there myself. I've seen Larry Turner once when he attended a seminar with Kevin, amazing to watch but too subtly for me to glean anything at the time (quiet guy too). I've tried looking up all three of these online and have only found passing references.

Sounds good. I don't know these two people but I hope they're helping to change the system. It needs help in a big way or it will will whither and die. The reality is that people are now woken up to the need for alive training. Arts that don't supply this type of training are being called out more and more.

Lastly, I've never been to a commercial Bujinkan dojo of any type so my opinion has not been formed from their exposure. Much of my opinion came directly from working with 5th Dan + instructors.

BTW. Did you get out to that BJJ/Kickboxing school yet to try out your stuff?

Katana,

The speculative conclusion of the first article is supported by a shaky historical pre-supposition, which he disclaims as being non-scholarly (though Ellis is obviously being humble). It is an interesting read though. I have several times heard comparisons drawn between Swiss pikemen as well as other mercenary groups of Europe, and the militant concentrations in Iga and Koga we now refer to as ninja. Of course, some large military bodies undoubtedly included specialists of scouting, geurilla tactics, and espionage.

The others are a rehash, and often a straight cut-and-paste, of the same few paragaphs that were included in koryu.com's article on ninjutsu. Some of the formatting makes me question the source for who said what; I though Dr, Friday was credited for the whole discourse, but some of those posts make it look like additional comments were added to his own.

In any case, for what it's worth I was told that a Bujinkan shihan living in Japan for a number of years, who also studies other koryu traditions there and is a well-versed historian, at one point contacted Dr. Friday in response to koryu.com's article and invited a first-hand investigation of some sort. He replied that he was not qualified to do so, and suggested that his comments on the matter were casual and uninformed, and had been used out of context in a way he never intended. I don't want to put words into Dr. Friday's mouth in any way, so I will attach a disclaimer to this that the details of what *I* was told are hazy, and that itself may be partially or completely inaccurate if such a conversation ever took place.

Regardless, I find it interesting that after I heard about this, all of these juicy speculations were removed from the article altogether and now exist only on old usenet postings.

I feel this tangent is rather erroneous for this thread however; this was meant to be about where quality Bujinkan training can be found, and what prospective students should look out for in dojos belonging to our organization. If you have such good things to say about your first teacher, I don't see the problem in saying who he is, but do as you will.


Lastly, I've never been to a commercial Bujinkan dojo of any type so my opinion has not been formed from their exposure. Much of my opinion came directly from working with 5th Dan + instructors.

Unfortunately that's hardly a benchmark for how commercial or even quality they are; you can't really get commercial before godan anyway.


BTW. Did you get out to that BJJ/Kickboxing school yet to try out your stuff?

I mentioned in the other thread too, I've had to concentrate on finals at college and have employment issues to settle. I will hopefully be attending class there within a couple weeks though.

Take care

( to name only one). by ronin

Seems like your are only going to name only one.

I'm not going to list out specific teachers because I don't want to invite lawsuits. by katana

An obvious crock of ****.

TheGodDamnMan,
If you were not such a fucking joke, and not a ninja mechanized attack squader, you would have simply used the handy dandy search feature on our wonderful forum and sought all the ninja "talks" your shinobi / power ranger wreaked mind could hope to digest in one swallow. By Deluxe 247

I am looking for actual information which is few and far between in the bujinkan bashing threads. Posts like the one you have graced us with above may have been funny the first four hundred times but now they are getting old. I started a new thread in hopes of getting actual information and accounts that can be backed up by facts like the name of the instructor and school. All of which have failed to be posted. Deluxe 247 I suggest you take your lame worn out sense of humor to one of the bujinkan bashing threads unless you are willing to back it up.

The Bujinkan sucks. Good dojos are the exception. The whole organization isn't run properly. They think they are ninjas. I have talked to numerous people who have had bad experiances in the bujinkan.

Ok, ok, whatever. Can I get one person, who has had one bad experience, to tell me what that experience is, who thier teacher was, where and what the name of thier dojo is?

I will accept no more bullshido about not wanting a lawsuit. No one can sue you for critisizing thier school unless you are lying about it. Schools and teachers are critisized all the time. Has Ashida Kim ever brought about and more importantly won a lawsuit against someone critisizing him? And Ashida Kim gets critisized more than the Pope uses holy water.

GodDamnitman I am going to tell you about my experience in the Bushinkan.My experience is way back in 2000 with a teacher named Felix Diaz in Miami,Fl.The teacher would try to teach us"realistic application" using Budo Taijutsu ideas.Sounds like a great idea and practical however,
the teacher would not teach the new students enough information to apply basic techniques.
So for example during "play" the idea would be to disarm a knife the new student having not been shown(kihon-basics) would have a hard time grabbing Uke wrist and having him resist and end up doing nothing.When I asked him how to perform it correctly I was told"do not WORRY about technique just flow with it" OR"FORGET technique just act natural" Now this is great I suppose to someone who has already mastered technique or basics but for someone who knows no technique it sounds like poor advice.Another problem was Ukemi.The teacher would have students do Ukemi down stairs(you know so you don't break your neck)And also leap rolls.
For people just starting out jumping over something without knowing how to correctly do it(When asked how to do it he replied"just think of yourself as superman").I have talked to several students one had to have surgery because he rolled on to something and messed up his shoulder.In this post I am speaking about my experiences and interpertations
of the teachings I recieved. Mr.Diaz did teach me 2 things 1.training should be realistic(I started from a mirror punching Shotokan Mcdojo) 2.There are better teachers out there.

Nice disclaimer. I think when you make accusations of a certain group making speculative claims, then do so yourself (disclaimer or not) in a far more *gossipy* manner makes your speculation less than credible (and that of your unnamed shihan that studies in Japan) - especially when stacked against koryu exponents that are named and *have* studied in Japan.


Originally posted by Spunky
In any case, for what it's worth I was told that a Bujinkan shihan living in Japan for a number of years, who also studies other koryu traditions there and is a well-versed historian, at one point contacted Dr. Friday in response to koryu.com's article and invited a first-hand investigation of some sort. He replied that he was not qualified to do so, and suggested that his comments on the matter were casual and uninformed, and had been used out of context in a way he never intended. I don't want to put words into Dr. Friday's mouth in any way, so I will attach a disclaimer to this that the details of what *I* was told are hazy, and that itself may be partially or completely inaccurate if such a conversation ever took place.

Shidoshi..
It's like someone giving themselves their own nickname - like: The Terminator.

*What's your nickname?*
*People call me The Terminator*
*Why is that?*
*It's how I introduce myself..*

Ps: I actually KNOW a guy who calls himself the terminator, and yes - he thought of it himself.

You're right, Budd, I should keep my trap shut until I clarify the details.

Originally posted by Deluxe247
Oh and btw....

http://www.IMGSpot.com/uploads/2-6897500.jpg

I find your lack of taste disturbing.

damn that's an ugly mofo
He's even uglier than me..
That's quite a feat!

I found that pic when I googled "ninja"

Thegoddamnman,


I am looking for actual information which is few and far between in the bujinkan bashing threads. Posts like the one you have graced us with above may have been funny the first four hundred times but now they are getting old...

The only thing getting old is you fucking ninjas posting these bujinkan bullshit threads over and over trying to convince people that it is a real deadly art that is so hard core badass that nobody could possibly win against it. It is understood that there MAY be -A- bujinkan school out there that acually isnt a Mcdojo, but that is about as rare as hannibal getting laid. Does it happen? Can it happen? Sure. But the fact is that its all bullshit and you should get the fucking hint already and stop posting. Or maybe your one of those morons who need to be told 50 times the sky is blue for you to believe it, just because one time you saw it in the morning and it was yellow-orange. Fucking ninja.