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View Full Version : Avoiding what happened to Silva



marconi720
12/30/2013 1:46pm,
I suspect many other people on Bullshido cringed a bit when Silva's leg was destroyed by Weidman's knee. I spent a few seconds thinking of whether I've been at risk of that, and the answer is a definite yes. I'd like some thoughts on how to avoid this, and whether this will change MMA strategy in general.

A few things went through my mind after seeing that:

1.) Always kick lightly a few times to gauge your opponent's reaction, seeing if and how they check your kicks.
2.) Mix up the targets, both sides on high, middle and low.
3.) Fake a kick, and then kick below/through the check to the other leg.
4.) Kick lower on the leg.

Regarding #2, are there some good pointers on disguising the target of your kick, so they don't know where it will hit until the last second? Increased flexibility would help, so you don't lean backward for high kicks, but I wonder if a very slight chambering of the leg could help. It would be less powerful, but it seems to work for Stephen Thompson.

As far as MMA competition, does anyone thing this injury happening to a striker as amazing as Silva will make people change their gameplans, either focusing more on checking or being more reluctant to kick? And is someone like Edson Barboza just too fast and unpredictably for people to do a hard check against him?

plasma
1/11/2014 12:02pm,
Thread approved.

From what I understand with my limited knowledge of Muay Thai (6 months) is Weidman Leg Check used the top of the shin (thicker) rather than the lower part (thiner). The Bone to Bone contact is what caused the injury.

Dork Angel
1/11/2014 2:01pm,
Yeah, looks like the thinner part of Silva's leg hit the thicker part of his opponent's leg with enough force to cause the break. I don't know whether it requires a change in tactics or whether to file it under "**** happens".

bobyclumsyninja
1/11/2014 3:02pm,
Yeah, looks like the thinner part of Silva's leg hit the thicker part of his opponent's leg with enough force to cause the break. I don't know whether it requires a change in tactics or whether to file it under "**** happens".
I would hope it would serve as a cautionary tale for speed kickers. It's a faster kick than turning the hip all the way over, but if the opponent uses the knee check that Weidman employed, it isn't fast enough.

It takes nothing to pivot the leg inwards and deny the the strike the angle if it's been trained into the reactions, whereas if the hip is engaged during the kick, it won't be coming from an angle the knee/upper shin can really get to quickly.

I don't think Silva fully respected Weidman's striking, even after the 1st fight. Something tells me were he up against a "striker" he'd have used proper form.

There may be a time to use that kind of low kick, perhaps if the opponents stance it too wide, reducing their ability to pivot/check...but that wasn't it.

Props to Weidman. It's nice to see the winner evolving.

EDIT: Watched the break again, and it was more Silva mistake against solid stance than a check even.

W. Rabbit
1/11/2014 4:36pm,
are there some good pointers on disguising the target of your kick, so they don't know where it will hit until the last second?

This is one of the best kick KOs in the history of UFC, and I think it displays what you're asking about.

In my opinion it's an extremely subtle hand feint followed by a kick nobody sees coming, especially Couture.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5won-02z66Q

Omega Supreme
1/11/2014 5:19pm,
Thread approved.

From what I understand with my limited knowledge of Muay Thai (6 months) is Weidman Leg Check used the top of the shin (thicker) rather than the lower part (thiner). The Bone to Bone contact is what caused the injury.Thread approved? Wow you're being merciful. I saw this thread originally and I couldn't approve it. The suggestions sound like their coming from a point of hypothesis instead of experienced fact.

This:

I would hope it would serve as a cautionary tale for speed kickers. It's a faster kick than turning the hip all the way over, but if the opponent uses the knee check that Weidman employed, it isn't fast enough.

It takes nothing to pivot the leg inwards and deny the the strike the angle if it's been trained into the reactions, whereas if the hip is engaged during the kick, it won't be coming from an angle the knee/upper shin can really get to quickly.

I don't think Silva fully respected Weidman's striking, even after the 1st fight. Something tells me were he up against a "striker" he'd have used proper form.

plasma
1/11/2014 5:52pm,
Thread approved? Wow you're being merciful. I saw this thread originally and I couldn't approve it. The suggestions sound like their coming from a point of hypothesis instead of experienced fact.

This:

We have been so harsh with the advanced technique forum moderation they have been basically dead. I am trying a different tact, newb/general questions go to Basic Technique and Specific Discussion go to Advanced Technique Forum. Nothing is stopping posters from telling the OP that they are wrong and why, as that generates discussion.

plasma
1/11/2014 6:05pm,
I would hope it would serve as a cautionary tale for speed kickers. It's a faster kick than turning the hip all the way over, but if the opponent uses the knee check that Weidman employed, it isn't fast enough.

It takes nothing to pivot the leg inwards and deny the the strike the angle if it's been trained into the reactions, whereas if the hip is engaged during the kick, it won't be coming from an angle the knee/upper shin can really get to quickly.

I don't think Silva fully respected Weidman's striking, even after the 1st fight. Something tells me were he up against a "striker" he'd have used proper form.

There may be a time to use that kind of low kick, perhaps if the opponents stance it too wide, reducing their ability to pivot/check...but that wasn't it.

Props to Weidman. It's nice to see the winner evolving.

EDIT: Watched the break again, and it was more Silva mistake against solid stance than a check even.


So, the issue was Silva throwing a round kick without pivoting the base leg and turning his hips into the kick? Therefore the angle of the kick was more at a 45 degree angle instead of a 90 degree angle which allowed Weidman to catch the kick on his shin?

Omega Supreme
1/11/2014 6:55pm,
So, the issue was Silva throwing a round kick without pivoting the base leg and turning his hips into the kick? Therefore the angle of the kick was more at a 45 degree angle instead of a 90 degree angle which allowed Weidman to catch the kick on his shin?Rather flicking it than throwing it if Bobby doesn't mind me answering.

wetware
1/11/2014 7:13pm,
Yeah, looks like the thinner part of Silva's leg hit the thicker part of his opponent's leg with enough force to cause the break. I don't know whether it requires a change in tactics or whether to file it under "**** happens".

Not only that, but a point in Silva's leg that is closer to the middle of the bone made contact with a point that is essentially on the end of Weidman's bone. I don't feel like an in-depth engineering-style stress analysis is warranted here. I think the vast majority of us broke boards in kiddy krotty and know this.



EDIT: Watched the break again, and it was more Silva mistake against solid stance than a check even.

Eh, I don't buy this at all. I've been taught to check opposite side kicks in precisely this manner, especially when retreating. Which Weidman was at the time.

Edit: Not to say Silva didn't make a mistake, the kick was not well thrown. But taking away credit due for a well-executed kick check to chalk it up to "Silva Screwed Up" is disingenuous.

bobyclumsyninja
1/11/2014 9:39pm,
Eh, I don't buy this at all. I've been taught to check opposite side kicks in precisely this manner, especially when retreating. Which Weidman was at the time.

Edit: Not to say Silva didn't make a mistake, the kick was not well thrown. But taking away credit due for a well-executed kick check to chalk it up to "Silva Screwed Up" is disingenuous.It wasn't my intention to do that. I was immensely impressed with Weidman's form throughout.

Simply put: If someone's dropping their hand after a right straight and their opponent counters over the top and KO's them, it's both a mistake, and a nice counter technique.

Similarly, Silva - in spite of his prowess and experience - threw a sloppy kick, that ran into ideal low kick defense (there was a check there, I'm seeing). It was both an error, and a nice counter. I've made the same error, but didn't break anything because I don't have the power (lol)

I'm no expert (I'm not even proficient), but that was my observation. If Silva had thrown with the hip turned over, he'd have likely landed the kick, or at the very least, wouldn't have broken his shinbone. That doesn't detract from Weidman's accomplishments. He earned both victories completely.

KiwiPhil889
1/12/2014 12:04am,
I'm curious how much of a "perfect storm" type event this was. Something that has gotten me wondering is weather Andersons kick being a rear leg kick gave Weidman more time to react/get his check in place??

Most of the time that the inside leg kick gets thrown in gyms is off the front foot because both fighters are orthodox, therefore quicker kick and less time to get a check set. Would throwing it off the front leg, typical righty vs righty situation make the check that much less likely to land?? and the leg break much less likely to occur?

wetware
1/12/2014 1:18am,
I'm curious how much of a "perfect storm" type event this was. Something that has gotten me wondering is weather Andersons kick being a rear leg kick gave Weidman more time to react/get his check in place??

Most of the time that the inside leg kick gets thrown in gyms is off the front foot because both fighters are orthodox, therefore quicker kick and less time to get a check set. Would throwing it off the front leg, typical righty vs righty situation make the check that much less likely to land?? and the leg break much less likely to occur?

I think what's more important here is that Silva is a strong striker who fights southpaw. If you're a right hander who fights orthodox the only time you'd really be able to use that kind of check is against an inside leg kick with the front leg, which probably wouldn't have enough force to do that kind of damage or a switch kick. I can't think of the last time I saw a switch kick in MMA. (Someone will probably find one five minutes after I post this. Whatever. They're not real common.) Against a southpaw this check can be used against their bread and butter rear leg kicks, which obviously do have the power to do this kind of damage. It's also important to note that southpaws can use this kind of check much more frequently that orthodox fighters simply because the vast majority of their opponents will have the opposite stance.

Edit: How did I miss the last half of your post? Yes, you're right.

erezb
1/12/2014 8:42am,
I think what's more important here is that Silva is a strong striker who fights southpaw. If you're a right hander who fights orthodox the only time you'd really be able to use that kind of check is against an inside leg kick with the front leg, which probably wouldn't have enough force to do that kind of damage or a switch kick. I can't think of the last time I saw a switch kick in MMA. (Someone will probably find one five minutes after I post this. Whatever. They're not real common.) Against a southpaw this check can be used against their bread and butter rear leg kicks, which obviously do have the power to do this kind of damage. It's also important to note that southpaws can use this kind of check much more frequently that orthodox fighters simply because the vast majority of their opponents will have the opposite stance.

Edit: How did I miss the last half of your post? Yes, you're right.

That is a dangerous check, he easily could have faked a very low kick and actually kick to the mid section, this check is quick but renders you upper thigh and body exposed. I also think this injury is not because of his technique, he kicked like that for thousands of times without shin guards, he knows (knew) what he can take when his opponent checks it. There is a reason people use shin guards, shins can break though rarely in such horrid fashion.
I think he had strain breaks (pressure breaks) because of actually kicking too much as a preparation for this fight..this resulted in this freak accident.
But from my limited experience without shinguard, if someone is quick to check them, low round houses are fucking painful. Only hard core MT guys can pull this **** off..its ridiculously painful.

bobyclumsyninja
1/12/2014 9:51pm,
That is a dangerous check, he easily could have faked a very low kick and actually kick to the mid section, this check is quick but renders you upper thigh and body exposed.
What's wrong with the check? Fill in the graphic I've prepared just for you.
15795

Omega Supreme
1/12/2014 10:43pm,
That is a dangerous check, he easily could have faked a very low kick and actually kick to the mid section, this check is quick but renders you upper thigh and body exposed. I also think this injury is not because of his technique, he kicked like that for thousands of times without shin guards, he knows (knew) what he can take when his opponent checks it. There is a reason people use shin guards, shins can break though rarely in such horrid fashion.
I think he had strain breaks (pressure breaks) because of actually kicking too much as a preparation for this fight..this resulted in this freak accident.
But from my limited experience without shinguard, if someone is quick to check them, low round houses are fucking painful. Only hard core MT guys can pull this **** off..its ridiculously painful.No dude, no.