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Permalost
7/27/2013 1:24pm,
Adding ground grappling, clinch, etc would make it more complete, but it seems like it'd also be reinventing the wheel, when the wheel has not only already been invented, but improved with spokes and inflatable rubber tires.

yieldingbamboo
7/27/2013 2:21pm,
I think this would be going too far. TKD is not a grappling art, and does not need grappling to validate itself. No one is calling boxers, muay Thai players, or Kyokushin karatekas frivolous players for points because they don't grapple.

Your new "grappling taekwondo" would essentially be taekwondo with second-rate judo and BJJ mixed in. TKD players who want to grapple should be cross-training, not trying to create some new all-encompassing teh deadly TKD.

I should probably have cut that part out since I also had meant this to be a sort of cross-style competition format as well. Yes, no need for grappling. However, knock downs would be very interesting, and avoiding them would encourage players to use less flashy kicks for fear of being knocked to the ground.

Andrew WA
7/27/2013 2:25pm,
I should probably have cut that part out since I also had meant this to be a sort of cross-style competition format as well. Yes, no need for grappling. However, knock downs would be very interesting, and avoiding them would encourage players to use less flashy kicks for fear of being knocked to the ground.

I like the idea of knockdowns giving a point or an extra point. It would encourage powerful blows more than they do already. So heavier round kicks and punches etc.

Now the question, hogus or no hogus?

yieldingbamboo
7/27/2013 2:26pm,
Adding ground grappling, clinch, etc would make it more complete, but it seems like it'd also be reinventing the wheel, when the wheel has not only already been invented, but improved with spokes and inflatable rubber tires.

No need to reinvent anything. Just include established skills; borrow from other arts. Use what works, put it together into one approved curriculum and then let each instructor add what he wants. Any way you spin it, Taekwondo owes its present form to something -- mostly Karate, and some Northern chuan fa perhaps. Some of course ascribe to the idea it was developed out of Taekkyon. Wouldn't hurt to borrow some more. Korean national pride will probably get in the way of that, though.

Well in that case they can borrow while pretending they made it up. I don't care; just push something that is more obviously workable as a serious striking system.

Permalost
7/27/2013 3:01pm,
No need to reinvent anything. Just include established skills; borrow from other arts. Use what works, put it together into one approved curriculum and then let each instructor add what he wants.

So, MMA?

yieldingbamboo
7/27/2013 3:37pm,
I like the idea of knockdowns giving a point or an extra point. It would encourage powerful blows more than they do already. So heavier round kicks and punches etc.

Now the question, hogus or no hogus?


Perhaps a thinner hogu would suffice. The Olympics want to keep their fighters safe. This is a good compromise, because it's still really tough, but you also have some protection so you don't accidentally get an organ destroyed from a nice kick. It might also work for keeping insurance costs down when local tournaments are hosted. Keeps parents interested in allowing their kids to compete too.

yieldingbamboo
7/27/2013 3:46pm,
So, MMA?

I'm not sure what your point is. The clinching skills used in MMA come from somewhere, like Muay Thai, boxing, or wrestling. Adding a skill to Taekwondo doesn't make it into an MMA knock off. My goal is to round it out some more so that it becomes viable and reputable as a system that can be used in MMA.

It is Fake
7/27/2013 5:04pm,
I'm not sure what your point is. Yes, you do. Basically, people will be learning MMA without ranking or training in the other arts you'll be describing below.


The clinching skills used in MMA come from somewhere, like Muay Thai, boxing, or wrestling. Adding a skill to Taekwondo doesn't make it into an MMA knock off. My goal is to round it out some more so that it becomes viable and reputable as a system that can be used in MMA.Adding multiple skills makes it no longer TKD. Adding clinching will make it TKD with clinching. Adding boxing footwork, MT Knees, Jiujitsu, and TKD will change the style.

Before you lose it, there is nothing wrong with that at all, but you'll end up being told it isn't TKD.


MMA is basically becoming a style in and of itself. There's a huge thread arguing this somewhere on bullshido.

Andrew WA
7/27/2013 10:04pm,
I think it is fair to say that most martial arts try to progress and research new ways or ideas into their art. It does not necessarily not make it the same art anymore. if TKD allows more face punching (and TKD has every punch boxing does) some boxing footwork could come to play. That does not mean it isnt TKD anymore. TKD already has a lot of footwork anyway.

Also within the poomsae there are some clinch-like moves. Taekwondo ho shin sool also has grabbing and locking techniques.

Anyway I do not think the WTF should put ground grappling in the new rules. Maybe some stand up clinching and allowing people to shove would be cool. They already changed the "no pushing ever" rule to "okay you can push as long as you have closed fists."

yieldingbamboo
7/27/2013 10:28pm,
Yes, you do. Basically, people will be learning MMA without ranking or training in the other arts you'll be describing below.

Adding multiple skills makes it no longer TKD. Adding clinching will make it TKD with clinching. Adding boxing footwork, MT Knees, Jiujitsu, and TKD will change the style.

Before you lose it, there is nothing wrong with that at all, but you'll end up being told it isn't TKD.


MMA is basically becoming a style in and of itself. There's a huge thread arguing this somewhere on bullshido.

Hapkido and Yudo techniques have historically been integral to the Taekwondo curriculum of many masters. Say if students who learned these techniques and then turn around and teach them without certification in either Yudo or Hapkido, just certification in TKD -- then what are they teaching? Personally I'd say they're teaching their master's TKD.

I don't disagree that MMA is quickly becoming a style of itself. I agree fully. It has its own favored techniques, sports culture, strategies, and training type.

I'm not going to lose it just because you disagree. Looking at how leg checks and leg kicks and knee strikes and elbow strikes and face punches are all technically in the Kukkiwon curriculum, I don't think much borrowing needs necessarily to take place. Taekwondo won't have to change as much as it will have to return to its roots.

Andrew WA
7/28/2013 1:44pm,
I don't disagree that MMA is quickly becoming a style of itself. I agree fully. It has its own favored techniques, sports culture, strategies, and training type.

I

Ya well tell that to some Alabama MMA gyms who have masters who are 3rd degree black belts in MMA!!!

Miguksaram
8/06/2013 7:58am,
They should just adopt Sanda Rules if they want to stay relevant. (TKD Black belt so it's cool if I post here right?)
Going off your idea here, a good compromise, which may attract more spectators and keep the tradition, is to perhaps combine it with Taekkyon, where there are throws and sweeps.

Permalost
8/06/2013 11:35am,
I'm not sure what your point is. The clinching skills used in MMA come from somewhere, like Muay Thai, boxing, or wrestling.
Muay thai, boxing or wrestling is where those MMA coaches learn those skills.

Adding a skill to Taekwondo doesn't make it into an MMA knock off.
It does if they aren't qualified to teach those skills and base their authority on their TKD black belt.

My goal is to round it out some more so that it becomes viable and reputable as a system that can be used in MMA.
Would you still include the forms and chambered punches and stuff? Could you teach the new stuff AND the old stuff in the same amount of time, and should you?

yieldingbamboo
10/07/2014 10:42am,
Would you still include the forms and chambered punches and stuff? Could you teach the new stuff AND the old stuff in the same amount of time, and should you?

Kyokushin does it, and those guys seem to do well in kickboxing bouts. WTF TKD gyms right now typically have a big emphasis on Olympic sparring, which in action looks and feels considerably different than the formal Kukki Taekwondo curriculum. So yes, I would teach KKW poomsae for purposes of movement education and tradition, along with some basic formal exercises, but the rest of the training would be sparring drills and self-defenses. A lot of the traditional ways of doing things have a lot of value in my opinion.

PS I know it's been a year since I last replied lol. Whoops.

Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs
10/08/2014 8:36am,
So "new" WTF Taekwondo = "full contact" ITF Taekwondo ? Just gives me a "meuh" feeling of disintrest.

Choue Chung-won can say what he wants, but IOC is the one that is really pulling the strings.
So long the WTF wants to keep Taekwondo in the Olympics, it will be that Thomas Bach will say "jump" and Choue Chung-won will say "how high?"

Guird
10/10/2014 7:32pm,
Since this got brought back anyway, I guess I'll add my 0.02 $ for what it's worth. Based on my limited experience with WTF tkd, I think they could improve its applicability enormously with just a few changes. 1: leg kicks, 2: kick-catches/throws/sweeps, 3: points for knockdowns, and 4: a slightly higher minimum force to score a point. 5: face punches. just add face protection to the headgear and voila, it's just as safe as WTF head kicking.
5 changes to the rules and you eliminate most of the major problems: bouncy bouncy, one-legged standing around, hands down, tippy-tappy kicks.

I don't mind the low level of contact that much(not everyone is willing to get concussions for realism's sake, and it's the olympics) or extra points for spinning kicks much (I mean, spinning kicks do ususally have more power right? and this rule gives the style a particular flavor). I'd definitely add it to my training if it were like above. I'd probably add it with just two or three of these changes.