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View Full Version : Explain how Judo is not a soft art?...because it is.



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BlazeLeeDragon
10/28/2012 10:51am,
Well you already mentioned great MA and people gave you good advice. So ill talk about other stuff:
1. The MA you study (especially the full contact ones) does not matter as much as the frequency , As Geoff Thompson wrote in his book, if you think training twice a week is enough to make you a tough street fighter you will be disappointed. I think a minimum of three times a week is required to get those fighting reflexes and form. So make that an important issue while choosing.
2. I see a lot of young dad's and family men coming to my boxing gym, relatively late in life, and definitely not your regular young clients. I have noticed that this new "need" to be the protector of your family, with the lack of confidence in one's abilities drive them to start doing a relatively tough MA like boxing.
The problem is that they usually don't lest more than a few good months, and though they improve, and get an ego boost, i don't think they gained anything substantial. My point is, don't born quickly. Don't start going 5 times a week like a man on a mission just to burn out, and stop altogether after 4 months.
When choosing, choose the most comfortable art/place. If you have a half alright Karate or traditional JJ 5 minutes from home, with good guys that are fun, and an option to train enough and with enough realism, i would go for the latter especially if it means not driving for almost an hour (back and forth) even if it is to an excellent boxing gym.
You need to think of this as an important and constant Hobey/passion. Basically most of your fitness should come from your MA.
Find a place that fits best with your schedule and life stile.
P.S if you like kicking, do MT. A good knee with an elbow is a powerful combo even against a big black guy. You can always improve your boxing with some sparring with ex "boxers" that train with you MT. Good luck.

I second that, the art is not as important as your training. However I would definitely meet the teachers, and try a few classes. A lot has to do with how the instructor teachers and what skills you'll learn. Some dont' train you they simply show you the movements and take your money. Combat drills are essential for a street fight. You want it to be reflexive.

If you can find it you might want to find an MMA school, do your research but many of the ones I see focus on real life combat situations.

Ultimately too you want to do a style your comfortable with and feels natural for you. Granted you can become more natural with it the longer you train.

Boxing: Good foundation and probably the quickest you'll learn to defend yourself. Nothing fancy straight to the point. Once again though depends on your coach.

Muay Thai: Make sure it's a real Thai school and not American kick boxing and it can like wise be very effective though most of the training and condition can take years.

Judo: Personally I would do jiu jitsu over Judo. Judo though it can be effective it's a soft art where as jiu jitsu in my opinion is more street worthy. Judo in many schools has become a "sport"

Escrima: or Kali as I'm heard the art often called is pretty brutal, however most of the best techniques require a stick and short knife.

mentally preparing yourself is very helpful, work on your physical conditioning and be aware. don't be a victim of circumstances.

Also bare in mind no matter what you study or for how long a single bullet will end it. Be smart when confronted.

Naszir
10/28/2012 11:48am,
Muay Thai: Make sure it's a real Thai school and not American kick boxing and it can like wise be very effective though most of the training and condition can take years.

Judo: Personally I would do jiu jitsu over Judo. Judo though it can be effective it's a soft art where as jiu jitsu in my opinion is more street worthy. Judo in many schools has become a "sport"

Escrima: or Kali as I'm heard the art often called is pretty brutal, however most of the best techniques require a stick and short knife.


I'd like to ask you a few questions about some of your recommendations, some of which I definitely agree with. Boxing is a great skill set for self-defense. Anyone with a little training won't be afraid of getting hit.

I am not sure what you meant by watered down american kickboxing. OP is in Canada, which has some amazing muay thai.

My main issue with what you said was judo vs jiu jitsu. For basic self-defense, I would personally rather train judo. If the jiu-jitsu you are speaking of is Japanese, with the exception of one school that I know of, you won't be doing nearly as much practice with application in a resistant setting as you will in judo. If your intention was about Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, I maintain the same position but for different reasons. In BJJ we spend 90%+ of our time on the ground. We do work take downs but certainly not to the degree that judo does. That said both are viable, I just think, as the transgendered woman in Israel proved when she was attacked, a seoi nage on the street will take a lot out of your opponent.

As for eskrima, there is a great amount of variation in FMA. Some schools will have you sparring fairly quickly, others will have you doing everything in a nonresistant fashion. Something that helped me immensely was not the offensive stick and knife work but the defensive stuff, especially Marc Denny's Die Less Often. This is a great series to work on attributes and techniques to survive an encounter with an armed attacker.

OP, as others have said, good luck to you. I hope you find a gym that gives you what you need and I also hope that you never find yourself in that situation again. Pace yourself, man. You mentioned being on a ship, would it be possible for you to do pad/bag work when you're out? What about weightlifting? I am just trying to think of things you can do in your time away from training that can help at least keep your fitness level up.

BlazeLeeDragon
10/28/2012 3:45pm,
I'd like to ask you a few questions about some of your recommendations, some of which I definitely agree with...
Fair enough I'll answer a few questions about my recommendations :)


I am not sure what you meant by watered down american kickboxing. OP is in Canada, which has some amazing muay thai.
I'm not saying American Kickboxing is watered down just that it has been push to more of a sport in many schools. Muay Thai I would say is a different system then kickboxing. Best way to know what I'm talking about is to look up a muay thai fight online and then watch an kickboxing fight. If you get some hard core Thai training there are conditioning with doing microfractures to the shins so they heal stronger for example. In American Kickboxing you can't use knees or elbows. It's just that Muay Thai is more brutal in my opinion and I would recommend it in a street fight over American Kickboxing. I am not saying Kickboxing is not bad ass nor that the fighters are not worth there salt. I'm just recommending to find a Muay Thai school.


My main issue with what you said was judo vs jiu jitsu. For basic self-defense, I would personally rather train judo. If the jiu-jitsu you are speaking of is Japanese, with the exception of one school that I know of, you won't be doing nearly as much practice with application in a resistant setting as you will in judo. If your intention was about Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, I maintain the same position but for different reasons. In BJJ we spend 90%+ of our time on the ground. We do work take downs but certainly not to the degree that judo does. That said both are viable, I just think, as the transgendered woman in Israel proved when she was attacked, a seoi nage on the street will take a lot out of your opponent.
Yes I'm referring to Japanese Jiu-jitsu, many of the techniques I've seen utilize throwing the oponent while maintaining a standing position or a higher position and isolating joints to causes breaks. Where as Judo you tend to be on the ground and is more grappling involved. I am not saying Judo is not affect or good, all I said was in my opinion i would go with Jiu-jitsu. just a preference.


As for eskrima, there is a great amount of variation in FMA. Some schools will have you sparring fairly quickly, others will have you doing everything in a nonresistant fashion. Something that helped me immensely was not the offensive stick and knife work but the defensive stuff, especially Marc Denny's Die Less Often. This is a great series to work on attributes and techniques to survive an encounter with an armed attacker.

I can agree here.

Scrapper
10/28/2012 4:16pm,
Blaze, your understanding of judo is tragically flawed. There is nothing soft about it.

BlazeLeeDragon
10/28/2012 4:22pm,
Blaze, your understanding of judo is tragically flawed. There is nothing soft about it.
Oh? Explain how Judo is not a soft art?...because it is.

goodlun
10/28/2012 4:24pm,
I second that, the art is not as important as your training.

The art and the way they are trained are largely linked.



If you can find it you might want to find an MMA school, do your research but many of the ones I see focus on real life combat situations.


MMA schools tend to focus on sport. Now nothing wrong with that at all, but you can't go and say something like



Judo: Personally I would do jiu jitsu over Judo. Judo though it can be effective it's a soft art where as jiu jitsu in my opinion is more street worthy. Judo in many schools has become a "sport"


As well as nominate two other Martial arts that train mostly for sport IE Boxing and Muay Thai.
So either accept that yes Martial Arts that compete heavily in sport are good for self defense because they train in an alive manner or lurk more post less.

BlazeLeeDragon
10/28/2012 4:31pm,
The art and the way they are trained are largely linked.
They can be, however I believe the training largely depends on the instructor. I feel good solid training in Karate would be better then a fluff school training in Ninjitsu. Not everyone trains or teaches the same. I find there is a large variety in how training goes from school to school.



MMA schools tend to focus on sport. Now nothing wrong with that at all, but you can't go and say something like
Well like I said from what I have seen. which is why I also said to do some research. I recommended mix martial arts because the idea was to mix up different fight situations to make a well rounded fighter.




As well as nominate two other Martial arts that train mostly for sport IE Boxing and Muay Thai.
So either accept that yes Martial Arts that compete heavily in sport are good for self defense because they train in an alive manner or lurk more post less.
I was not bad mouthing Judo, I was saying Jiu-jitsu in my opinion is a better choice. I also said that Judo is effective. Yes Boxing is mostly sport, but your at least learning hitting and dodging. Muay Thai though it can be trained as a sport there are still schools who train it as combat. Many but not all the Judo schools tend to focus on take downs, however in a fight situation, the fight doesn't stop there. I know there are good Judo schools but like said I simple recommend Jiu-jitsu over Judo.

and lurk more? come on what is the fun in that?

Scrapper
10/28/2012 4:52pm,
Blaze,

Judo is practiced at full speed and full contact from your first class. You will spend a significant amount of training time getting smashed and bashed at full speed. That's not soft. It is brutal on par with wrestling, boxing, and jujitsu (I've done all of them).

Judo is no softer than any other full contact, fully alive art.

That's what makes it a good self defense art. It starts with a strong standing clinch game, and ends with a comprehensive ground game; all trained in an alive manner. Calling it soft is like saying a power lifter is overweight. You think you are right, but you don't really understand what you are looking at.

goodlun
10/28/2012 5:02pm,
They can be, however I believe the training largely depends on the instructor. I feel good solid training in Karate would be better then a fluff school training in Ninjitsu. Not everyone trains or teaches the same. I find there is a large variety in how training goes from school to school.

Sigh, you don't get it. I highly doubt you have been from school to school or for that matter style to style. I have trained at 3 BJJ schools, 1 GJJ school, 3 Judo Schools. They all taught in the same way this is because its integral to the art. The concept of Randori and aliveness is built into the system. There is quality control system built in to this type of instruction. All of the instructors have been trained using more or less the same methodology. Yes some of the instructors are better at instructing than others but at any of those schools your going to learn the art in a quality setting with quality instruction.



Well like I said from what I have seen. which is why I also said to do some research. I recommended mix martial arts because the idea was to mix up different fight situations to make a well rounded fighter.

You have no freaking clue do you?
You should do some research start with Vale Tudo, the Gracie Challenge, UFC 1-10, Pride ect. Mixed Martial Arts is a term for a Combat Sport whos biggest promotion is currently the UFC.



I was not bad mouthing Judo, I was saying Jiu-jitsu in my opinion is a better choice. I also said that Judo is effective.

A very uniformed opinion, maybe you should get more information before you start recommending things to people.


Yes Boxing is mostly sport, but your at least learning hitting and dodging.
As opposed to throwing, controlling, choking, and limb destroying?
Maybe you may want to go back to the 90s and look at Grappling vs Striking.



Muay Thai though it can be trained as a sport there are still schools who train it as combat.

Muay Thai is the sport. There is no "combat" Muay Thai. Muay Thai is an effective fighting art. It is not some ancient battle field art.



Many but not all the Judo schools tend to focus on take downs, however in a fight situation, the fight doesn't stop there.
Sight, Judo does have a standing focus, but it doesn't neglect ground work, they work on pinning techniques, choking techniques, and joint locking techniques with aliveness against a resisting opponent. Also most fights will end with a good judo throw, even if they don't a judoka is going to be fine on the ground against anyone who isn't a BJJ guy.



I know there are good Judo schools but like said I simple recommend Jiu-jitsu over Judo.

That is because you don't know **** about Judo or Jiu-jitsu

BlazeLeeDragon
10/28/2012 5:14pm,
Blaze,

Judo is practiced at full speed and full contact from your first class. You will spend a significant amount of training time getting smashed and bashed at full speed. That's not soft. It is brutal on par with wrestling, boxing, and jujitsu (I've done all of them).

Judo is no softer than any other full contact, fully alive art.

That's what makes it a good self defense art. It starts with a strong standing clinch game, and ends with a comprehensive ground game; all trained in an alive manner. Calling it soft is like saying a power lifter is overweight. You think you are right, but you don't really understand what you are looking at.

Soft means using your opponent's energy against them. It means your not muscling all the movements. Tai chi, pakua and wing chun are other examples of soft arts. The reason I said Jiu-jitsu is recommended over Judo is that most of the techniques I've seen used are bone breaking and joint dislocations. where as with judo I see alot of tumbling and falling with them to a ground grapple position. I did say in my original post that Judo is effective but i would recommend Jiu-jitsu over judo.


Judo: Personally I would do jiu jitsu over Judo. Judo though it can be effective it's a soft art where as jiu jitsu in my opinion is more street worthy. Judo in many schools has become a "sport"

here, judo throws, they fall to the ground on top of the opponent https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOV3qVIEFng

jiu-jitsu throws they stay standing in a lot of them http://youtu.be/TLztV4pHZKM

that and most of the jiu-jitsu guys I talk to that showed me some of there throws showed me how you do joint locks and breaks which are illegal in judo tournaments.

So again, I say it was only my opinion based on my personal experience as limited as it maybe with Judo and Jiu-jitsu

goodlun
10/28/2012 5:25pm,
more nonsense

A Judoka can choice to follow someone to the ground or not. Judo does teach joint locks. They do not focus on standing joint locks because well they are not very effective. This is the same reason BJJ also doesn't focus on standing joint locks. Don't get me wrong BJJ or Judo guy can do a standing wrist or elbow lock or standing choke or what ever but they are low percentage moves. This goes for anyone doing them.

BlazeLeeDragon
10/28/2012 5:35pm,
Sigh, you don't get it. I highly doubt you have been from school to school or for that matter style to style. I have trained at 3 BJJ schools, 1 GJJ school, 3 Judo Schools. They all taught in the same way this is because its integral to the art. The concept of Randori and aliveness is built into the system. There is quality control system built in to this type of instruction. All of the instructors have been trained using more or less the same methodology. Yes some of the instructors are better at instructing than others but at any of those schools your going to learn the art in a quality setting with quality instruction.
You'd be surprised how many "versions" of each art that are out there. I have been to multiple schools, and each one has trained differently. Many schools branch off from the original source when it came over to America. So unless you go with one branch of schools other schools teaching the same styles are different. I've been to about 30-40 different schools and I've found most of the tae kwon do, tang soo do, karate, kung fu, tai chi, etc have all taught different even if the school claimed the same style. If your finding the same training in each school your going to cookie cutter schools with a dead art that is not growing and changing. if that's what you like that is fine. But anyone who asks me I'll tell them to go to different schools till they find a fit.



You have no freaking clue do you?
You should do some research start with Vale Tudo, the Gracie Challenge, UFC 1-10, Pride ect. Mixed Martial Arts is a term for a Combat Sport whos biggest promotion is currently the UFC.
Obviously I have more of a clue then you and your limited perception. I'm speaking form the MMA fighters I have met I'm sorry we didn't meet the same people but you know there actually alot more people in the world then the ones you've met. seriously there is even other countries in case you didn't know.


A very uniformed opinion, maybe you should get more information before you start recommending things to people.
Now your talking out your ass again, I've met and spoken with and sparred with both Jiu-jitsu practioners and judo practioniers. as everyone was giving there input he gets a well rounded idea of other's views. I'm sorry I've not trained in every art known to man but I do have my limitations. I like Jiu-jitsu better, so get over it.


As opposed to throwing, controlling, choking, and limb destroying?
Maybe you may want to go back to the 90s and look at Grappling vs Striking. ok obviously you've never been to a judo tournament nor watched out. if you chock or destory a limb in one you'll be disqualified. and sure give the guy advice to grab the guy with a knife real smart...



Muay Thai is the sport. There is no "combat" Muay Thai. Muay Thai is an effective fighting art. It is not some ancient battle field art.
of course, of course...muay thai wouldn't be illegal in the states...at all...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKBDnifKo48 maybe from your perspective fine, but not from everyone's...and I didn't say it's a battle field art so dont' put words in my mouth.


Sight, Judo does have a standing focus, but it doesn't neglect ground work, they work on pinning techniques, choking techniques, and joint locking techniques with aliveness against a resisting opponent. Also most fights will end with a good judo throw, even if they don't a judoka is going to be fine on the ground against anyone who isn't a BJJ guy.
I will not argue your points here because they are sound points.




That is because you don't know **** about Judo or Jiu-jitsu

you need to get off your high horse and realize your don't know everything. I don't know what your problem is but going out of your way to attack my post is pretty pathetic. you even magically ended up on one of the gun posts I did...get alife. If you disagree post your opinion, but you don't know everything you think you do.

goodlun
10/28/2012 6:01pm,
Obviously I have more of a clue then you and your limited perception. I'm speaking form the MMA fighters I have met I'm sorry we didn't meet the same people but you know there actually alot more people in the world then the ones you've met. seriously there is even other countries in case you didn't know.

What are you babbling about MMA is a combat sport that is what it is.



Now your talking out your ass again, I've met and spoken with and sparred with both Jiu-jitsu practioners and judo practioniers. as everyone was giving there input he gets a well rounded idea of other's views. I'm sorry I've not trained in every art known to man but I do have my limitations. I like Jiu-jitsu better, so get over it.

Your not trained in the Arts your talking about or giving your opinion about nor do you have sufficient knowledge about them to tell Martial Art beginners about them.




ok obviously you've never been to a judo tournament nor watched out. if you chock or destory a limb in one you'll be disqualified.

Proof that you have 0 clue as to what your talking about. Proof that you have never been to a judo tournament, proof that you have never competed in one, proof that you don't have even a basic understanding of judo. proof I am right about you knowing nothing about the subject your so quick to give advise on.



of course, of course...muay thai wouldn't be illegal in the states...at all...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKBDnifKo48 maybe from your perspective fine, but not from everyone's...and I didn't say it's a battle field art so dont' put words in my mouth.

Muay Thai isn't illegal, in fact NO martial arts are illegal in the US. Muay Thai Competition isn't even illegal here. Once again you talking about something you know next to nothing about.



you need to get off your high horse and realize your don't know everything. I don't know what your problem is but going out of your way to attack my post is pretty pathetic. you even magically ended up on one of the gun posts I did...get alife. If you disagree post your opinion, but you don't know everything you think you do.
Never said I know everything, but when I post advice to people in this section its because it is something I do actually know about. In the future it would behoove you to do the same.

BlazeLeeDragon
10/28/2012 6:02pm,
Hello everyone,

I've been lurking around the forums for quite some time due to the entertainment factor and the fact that I appreciate the straight-up, no BS attitude when it comes to training to fight. I would like to get your personal opinions on the very serious topic of self-defense...

Well I hope my opinion was helpful to you and I also hope that the back and fourth was to your benefit. You'll see this a lot everyone has there own opinion. So I suggest take no ones word and keep searching and form your own opinion ;) best of luck to you.

BlazeLeeDragon
10/28/2012 6:09pm,
blah blah

Whatever, keep patting yourself on the back. Oh wise and all knowing bullshitter who knows all arts and if you don't think something is accurate it must not be... man if you do martial arts as well as you talk **** you must be amazing!

I find it amusing you are lecture on who can say what to people based on there training, when you've had no escrima, boxing or muay thai training...funny how there is a double standard...hmmm

goodlun
10/28/2012 6:31pm,
Whatever, keep patting yourself on the back. Oh wise and all knowing bullshitter who knows all arts and if you don't think something is accurate it must not be... man if you do martial arts as well as you talk **** you must be amazing!

I find it amusing you are lecture on who can say what to people based on there training, when you've had no escrima, boxing or muay thai training...funny how there is a double standard...hmmm

Never claimed to know every martial art. In fact if you pay attention you will find that for the most part I steer clear of the traditional martial arts forums.
When I start lecturing you about Boxing, Muay Thai and Escrima (something I have said nothing about to you) beyond your factual inaccuracies then we can talk about it.
However I have had boxing, Muay Thai, and MMA instruction. These are not things I train in regularly as I prefer grappling.