A guy I used to train with was the head of his highschool's boxing club in Idaho. He fought from the Philly Shell position, and also threw really quick side kicks from there. In theory I could've just leg kicked him but he was good at countering before my kick was all the way out there. Is it hard to believe that a boxer would use such a guard? I mean, it's a boxing guard after all.

Note, I wasn't questioning your integrity, my point is simply that if you haven't had formal boxing training then you shouldn't really be attempting to use advanced boxing techniques - especially seeing as your style field mentions nothing of boxing or MMA.
Fair enough, yet i've been fighting my whole life and training formally most of that time.
The KF group included formally trained boxers, my dad and grandfater used to beat the **** out of us with their "Military boxing workouts", lol, and i've been an observant fan since before Tyson so i'm not totally clueless about the sweet science.
It's the same rationale used all the time here when evaluating stuff.




I still don't see its use in MMA, even from a theoretical perspective. The evasive effects of the philly shell are based on boxers not being allowed to hit the back, and you're protecting your front by rolling and standing side on. By reducing the takedown risk by being less side on you reduce the ability for your shoulder to cover you from the front and protect your face.

Floyd uses it squared up while on the ropes.
Remember the moments before this?
http://cdn.hollywoodgrind.com/images/2011/09/victor-ortiz-head-butt-floyd-mayweather-jr-hollywoodgrind-1.jpg

Yeah but even right there on the ropes (in MMA) he would be better served by having both hands up in a position to grab a thai clinch or pummel and make space. There are way too many variable and less rules in MMA to make that more than a novelty postion for someone who is super confident in their footwork and boxing ability.

Fine, let's even say it was Vale Tudo and the butt was legal.
You say pummel but his hand is already there in that shot, pummeling is easier from there than both hands high.
The neck/collar or a whizzer on Floyds right might be there depending where the pressure went.
If Ortiz did the headbutt then changed levels and Floyd was all upright with his hands up, he'd be fucked.
With his hand down like that i'd say he stands a better chance and has more options, in the hypothetical vale tudo match where they both can grapple.
Pretty much any modern mma card has someone with their back to the cage trying to pummel an arm in at some point.
Seems reasonable that it'd be easier if it was already there.

I dont use this all the time butone positive thing I've found is the success I have with my jab hand. I spose this is because people aren't as used to dealing with the different angle. It is harder for them to read and distinguish between lead uppercut/hook/jab/rip/Razor Ruddock Smash. But on the negative side, good head (and foot)movement and counterfighting ability is a must. A little bit of reach or height goes a long way too.

I dont use this all the time butone positive thing I've found is the success I have with my jab hand. I spose this is because people aren't as used to dealing with the different angle. It is harder for them to read and distinguish between lead uppercut/hook/jab/rip/Razor Ruddock Smash. But on the negative side, good head (and foot)movement and counterfighting ability is a must. A little bit of reach or height goes a long way too.

I am tall and lanky for my weight and agreed on the angles.

Yeah but even right there on the ropes (in MMA) he would be better served by having both hands up in a position to grab a thai clinch...

I'd like to single this one out if you do not mind.
Is a Thai clinch one of your go to's to prevent a takedown in that situation, or is pummeling, over/under etc better?

I'm not certain that the philly shell would actually put you in a better position for pummelling. Your arm is across your body. Plus, as I've been taught you want your underhook high to prevent your opponent pummelling back in, the philly shell would put your hands further from that point than a normal guard.

Dropping your hand a few inches from a peekaboo guard allows you to pummel quickly without giving up striking defence, and giving you the option to use the plum clinch; which isn't there with the philly shell.

This is also a peekaboo guard, albeit of the Archie Moore 'dracula style' variation. The attributes which make the Cus D'Amato style you are used to seeing pretty much will take you a long way towards making this work, too. If you can make it work, it will work well for kicking, too. The variation is more angled to one side, however, making it much harder to implement and also have an effective shoot & takedown defense.

You can do some damn fine hotdogging from this variation, though.

I'd like to single this one out if you do not mind.
Is a Thai clinch one of your go to's to prevent a takedown in that situation, or is pummeling, over/under etc better?

No. Not stop a takedown but it is my go to for turning my opponent and getting myself off the ropes.

Chun? You're an idiot.I was talking to Ice Hole, who was going on about Bong Sau. Way to pointlessly be a dick, though!

I was talking to Ice Hole, who was going on about Bong Sau. Way to pointlessly be a dick, though!

I thought he was funny. You insulted his lineage (unintentionally) when you compared it to Chun (and I think that picture I grabbed off Google was a Chunner, so my bad for the confusion).

Bong sau is not exclusive to Chun, it's common in a few CMA styles and at least in Hung ga, it's one of a few major bridging methods. It's not a "guard" in the boxing sense when used in CMA. There are several variations that I know of but the one in the image is essentially an inside forearm block that would be immediately followed with a counter with the other arm.

It's not really the same thing as the Philly Shell, it looks similar to it but only if you took a snap shot in time, and my (noob) question to Chen was is there anything really similar with the body movement between the two. I guess there is as far as the arms and waist movement are concerned...but that's about it.

You would not stay in the "bong sau" position while fighting at all, in fact as people have pointed out with the boxing discussion, you'd be hit pretty easily by someone able to angle and hit you from the side or back.

It's not really the same thing as the Philly Shell, it looks similar to it but only if you took a snap shot in time, and my (noob) question to Chen was is there anything really similar with the body movement between the two. I guess there is as far as the arms and waist movement are concerned...but that's about it.
Grumble, so why are we discussing it if it's "not rally the same thing as Philly Shell"? You should know better than most how I'm a stickler for staying on topic in the technique section.

Stay on topic people, and keep the flaming to a minimum. There should be no posts in the training areas that do not mention the thread topic. Right, PSB?

/Grumble.

Edit: And don't apologize or even respond to this post. That would be yet another off topic post in the technique section.

Noob here, feel free to talk crap.
Permalost said that the guy he saw using the philly shell was intercepting attacks with a side kick, and Tom Kagen mentioned a more bladed stance to make the style more effective with expanded sparring rules. Not to tap any nerves, but the stance starts to look more and more like JKD's Bai Jong. The lead fist is held in front of the body, knuckles on center line, pointed at the other persons head, and the rear hand is slightly off center on the cheek, or in front of the face off center ready to parry, those are really the only differences as far as hand placement goes. Defence is similar, shoulder roll, Elbow block (Bong Sau), standard hook cover, but the lead hand is in a more usefull position, ready to fire a jab, or stuff a take down. Any thoughts?

Noob here, feel free to talk crap.
Permalost said that the guy he saw using the philly shell was intercepting attacks with a side kick, and Tom Kagen mentioned a more bladed stance to make the style more effective with expanded sparring rules. Not to tap any nerves, but the stance starts to look more and more like JKD's Bai Jong. The lead fist is held in front of the body, knuckles on center line, pointed at the other persons head, and the rear hand is slightly off center on the cheek, or in front of the face off center ready to parry, those are really the only differences as far as hand placement goes. Defence is similar, shoulder roll, Elbow block (Bong Sau), standard hook cover, but the lead hand is in a more usefull position, ready to fire a jab, or stuff a take down. Any thoughts?
I prefer the stance you're describing, but if you're keeping your lead hand upright and pointed at your opponent's face, that's not exactly a philly shell. The shell is where the lead hand is low and across, like this:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_yBRddvGvCio/TFF5vxhbiFI/AAAAAAAAAA0/wQvilIlFvMI/s320/pacquiaovsmayweather.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42890000/jpg/_42890521_floyd_defence416.jpg

http://eng.inkungfu.com/upload/201007/20100713130044609.jpg

... and Tom Kagen mentioned a more bladed stance to make the style more effective with expanded sparring rules. Not to tap any nerves, but the stance starts to look more and more like JKD's Bai Jong.

No, I didn't mention that. You did. I specifically said a sideways stance makes it harder to implement under less stringent rules.

The stance of which you speak is a staple of Kempo Karate, not JKD. Regardless, JKD puts the power side forward. The Philly Shell has the weak side forward. And, a standing guard in CMA is correctly called 'JongSao', not 'BaiJong'. You JKD guys are really good at taking from an art what you think works and proceeding to **** it up beyond all recognition.