In a friendly debate with a buck sergeant at work (a buck sergeant that's never trained but is a self proclaimed MMA expert), I stated that most successful mixed martial artists found their striking in boxing. I cited guys from Don Frye, to Nate Diaz, to Vitor Belfort, all the way to Junior Dos Santos, and he said that none of them could accurately be described as 'boxers'. What do you boys think?

*Feel free to move this to YMAS, I was borderline over placing this here*

Um... I'm not sure what the argument here is... you're right that those guys have a striking skill set that comes from boxing (not sure I'd say most though... Muay Thai anyone?)

He, however, is also right that none of them could accurately be described as 'boxers'. They're martial artists who use some of the boxing skill set as a part of their game.

Have I missed something?

what he said. boxing in mma is different to actual boxing in a bunch of ways, even if the basic mechanics are the same.

Hold on a second. No one bats an eye at people calling Cain Velasquez or Chael Sonnen "wrestlers", or Demian Maia and Big Nogueira "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Practicioners", so why shouldn't fighters who use pugilistic stances and manuvers like Diaz or Dos Santos be described as boxers?

Hold on a second. No one bats an eye at people calling Cain Velasquez or Chael Sonnen "wrestlers", or Demian Maia and Big Nogueira "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Practicioners", so why shouldn't fighters who use pugilistic stances and manuvers like Diaz or Dos Santos be described as boxers? The argument might be that Velasquez and Maia competed at the highest level of wrestling and jiujitsu respectively, whereas dos santos did not for boxing?

I have no problem saying dos santos has a boxing style though.

Hold on a second. No one bats an eye at people calling Cain Velasquez or Chael Sonnen "wrestlers", or Demian Maia and Big Nogueira "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Practicioners", so why shouldn't fighters who use pugilistic stances and manuvers like Diaz or Dos Santos be described as boxers?

It's fine to describe the fighters you use as wrestlers because they both wrestled competitively prior to MMA. Likewise, Nog and Maia were (and still are) pure Jiu Jitsu practitioners as well as MMA fighters. I don't know if Diaz or Dos Santos competed in pure boxing prior to MMA, but I do know that not all of the fighters listed in the op did.

It's simple: If someone has or does compete in pure boxing then they are or were a boxer. If they study some boxing and apply it to a different discipline, they are not.

I'm not making a statement concerning skill, just pointing out that the definition of a boxer is someone who boxes. Not someone who uses boxing techniques in an MMA match.

Seems to me that the classic era of boxing got a lot of people thinking that if a boxer wasn't one of a handful of household names (Ali, Frasier, Tyson), they weren't a "real boxer". I have no issues calling someone who boxes a boxer, even if they're not a pro at it. I guess the argument is that a MMA fighter with a boxing style striking game who isn't also a boxer in the poofy gloves sense isn't properly a boxer, but I'll bet if someone is any good at using a boxing style against competitive fighters, they probably are or were a boxer.

Question:
What do those of you who on the "Nay" side of this debate think about refering to George Saint Pierre (never wrestled in high school or college, but trained with the Canadian Olympic wrestling team and successfully outwrestled guys like Koscheck, Fitch, and Hughes) as a wrestler?

Question:
What do those of you who on the "Nay" side of this debate think about refering to George Saint Pierre (never wrestled in high school or college, but trained with the Canadian Olympic wrestling team and successfully outwrestled guys like Koscheck, Fitch, and Hughes) as a wrestler?

Personally, I would not describe George St Pierre as a wrestler, because although he may have a PHENOMENAL skill set now based around wrestling, he has never wrestled competitively. I'm not saying he can't wrestle, or that he wouldn't do well in competition. I've heard it bandied around often that he's at an olympic level in the game.

I guess, for me, it's a matter of language. The definition of 'wrestler' is one who wrestles. GSP doesn't wrestle competitively. And although his wrestling in MMA is fantastic, he doesn't rely solely on it... he uses techniques from other disciplines too.

I know we could say that he fulfills the definition of wrestler because he does wrestle in MMA, but if that's the case, he's also a boxer, kick boxer, karateka, and jiu jitsu stylist. To me, it makes more sense to call him an MMA fighter, and to expand on that by saying he has a wrestling base, if necessary. But to call him a wrestler (in my eyes) is misleading, because it automatically implies that he has or does wrestle competitively in wrestling matches.

I mean, I use hooks, jabs and crosses, but I'm sure as **** not a boxer.

It's not so much what GSP is capable of, for me, as it is a case of what he does. Obviously, this is all semantics, and makes little difference to fight sports, but I'm a bit of a pedant.

Personally, I would not describe George St Pierre as a wrestler, because although he may have a PHENOMENAL skill set now based around wrestling, he has never wrestled competitively. I'm not saying he can't wrestle, or that he wouldn't do well in competition. I've heard it bandied around often that he's at an olympic level in the game.... But to call him a wrestler (in my eyes) is misleading, because it automatically implies that he has or does wrestle competitively in wrestling matches.
You premise is false, he has done freestyle competitions in the past. I know a guy who trained with him in Canada.

Your quibble is ultimately a question of arbitrary semantics.

You premise is false, he has done freestyle competitions in the past. I know a guy who trained with him in Canada.

Your quibble is ultimately a question of arbitrary semantics.

I agree that it's arbitrary semantics, but it's not my quibble, it's the argument as a whole. Re read the op.

As to GSP competing in pure wrestling, that changes things for me. My reply was based on Vince's assertion (which perhaps I mis-read) that GSP had NOT competed in pure wrestling.

Back to the original point of the thread, I wouldn't consider even great strikers like JDS as boxers because although their skill set may draw heavily from boxing, what they are doing in the octagon is not boxing. That's not to say JDS couldn't be a great boxer, just that he isn't currently competing as one.

I believe that Diaz has had a few boxing matches not sure though.
That being said Dos Santos is not a boxer he is a cage fighter who uses tools from boxing to win his fights. there is a huge difference.

In a friendly debate with a buck sergeant at work (a buck sergeant that's never trained but is a self proclaimed MMA expert), I stated that most successful mixed martial artists found their striking in boxing. I cited guys from Don Frye, to Nate Diaz, to Vitor Belfort, all the way to Junior Dos Santos, and he said that none of them could accurately be described as 'boxers'. What do you boys think?

*Feel free to move this to YMAS, I was borderline over placing this here*I believe your argument is extremely flawed. No, they can't be described as boxers. Only Franky Edgar has been able to demonstrate true boxing in an MMA setting. Almost everybody else uses a modified stance somewhere between a wrestling stance and a kickboxing stance.

if you see someone doing horrible mistakes during a wrestling move, his take down or whatever even if it succeeds is sloppy and technically bad, than you can't call him a wrestler... same for boxing, though you have some MMA fighters that train in boxing allot (GSP 4 example trained with Freddy Roach.) if their technique is horrible, like sticking their chin up, not using combinations properly, i don't care how many KO the guy does, he isn't a boxer.
The fact that someone had a pro boxing fight or two doesn't automatically makes him a Boxer in my eyes, for example Cimbo had a pro boxing fight with some cannon meat, he won, is he a boxer? he is boxing oriented, yes, but he isn't really a boxer. I think that BJ Pen has some good boxing, and also Anderson Silva. "The Irish Hand Grenade" Marcus Davis was a pro boxer and he uses his skills nicely.One of these days you've got to educate us on how you can throw your voice so far up your ass. You should take your show on the road. I can see it now "Erezb, and his incredible talking ass. Can you figure out which one talks more bullshit?....We can't."

Um... I'm not sure what the argument here is... you're right that those guys have a striking skill set that comes from boxing (not sure I'd say most though... Muay Thai anyone?)

He, however, is also right that none of them could accurately be described as 'boxers'. They're martial artists who use some of the boxing skill set as a part of their game.

Have I missed something?
Counter point: Some of those fighters started off in boxing and went to MMA, or started boxing as their base skill set.

i think i sort of agree with the buck sargeant in the sens that you don't purely box in MMA. ie. you have to be weary of the takedown, knees, et all, so you change your game up a bit.

whereas, the changes in wrestling/jiujitsu are in fact there, i don't feel they are as prevalent. just my opinion though. but yeah, you CAN win just using pure boxing, but i see that as harder to happen than winning using pure wrestling (Lay'n'Pray anyone?)