You know best, I talk bullcrap, right? Fine, then would you please inform me what are your sorces. Do you even know who Ewart Oakeshott was? Alan Williams? Jan Petersen? Manfred Sachse? Ever heard of Johannes Liechtenauer, Fiore dei Liberi, Manuscript I.33? Give me some proof that you actually know something about western weaponry. I gave plenty of links in this thread, now its on you...
name-dropping and avoiding my point won't help you. did someone dropped you as a child or were you born that stupid?

PS: "idiot, otherwise be my guest, I'm near Frankfurt/Main." - a clear sign of poor argumentation. I do not accept martial challenges from anonymous guys on Internet
wrong again. a clear sign of my frustration resulting from your lack of comprehension.

this is, why I'm going to repeat myself, but will do so in English and German. However you are a drama queen-**** anyway.

O brave Sir Kenning, take pity on us, and use your sharp, well made European sword to slay this great dragon of ignorance that has been terrorizing the masses!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b0/Bidston_Windmill.jpg/220px-Bidston_Windmill.jpg

Drama **** wrote:

On TOPIC!
Everyone knows that european swordblades were blunt by design and were more bashing clubs than cutting tools. Asian swords were sharp. Europeans apparently didn't knew how to use whetstones and files to make sharp blades.

... Of course it's pure bullshit. Here one of the best links I found concerning sharpness of original blades: Edge Bevels and blade geometry of original swords. (http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?105673-Debunking-European-Sword-Myths.&p=1160259#post1160259)
But unlike other myths I know where it comes from. Decades of mass produced wallhangers, stage combat safe props and rusted antiques have led to the notion anything "european" has to be blunt. Epees and smallswords were pure thrusters, the only swordsmanship remained in 20th century was foil fencing. That's it. Only since 2000er affordable authentic sharp european blades are available (Albions, ATrims), which are actually made for real use and not only for "looking good". You can not blame people for this, not really.

My response:


to the second part, from where you bold-marked it, I can agree with ease. I wouldn't even complain about it.
clearly, the second part is the adjustment of the first part.
it is kenning's heavy exaggerated presumptions I mock. Indeed I doubt one would find a majority of people that do believe medieval swords were crude or clubs etc.

so, why do I believe that bold part? Because:


I absolute don't know for the US.

As for Germany or even generally Europe I am under the impression that there is much cultural/historical knowledge beeing passed to population unintentionally.
keep in mind, there is a ton of castles, ruins etc here, people visit with their children on weekends when visiting the zoo is getting boring.

so in plain and simple words:
it is very unlikely to grow up in Germany and many other european countries without having visited castles and castle museum with pieces of medieval weaponry as a child or pupil. Every guide is going to tell weight and data to that **** more than one would ask.

so indeed, that being bullshit, as stated by kenning:

On TOPIC!
Everyone knows that european swordblades were blunt by design and were more bashing clubs than cutting tools. Asian swords were sharp. Europeans apparently didn't knew how to use whetstones and files to make sharp blades.

... Of course it's pure bullshit. [...]

is more or less common knowledge, propably not in the US, but here it is. Ofcourse you would have to substract fucktards that believe every **** they see on tv, but you have to give me that one.

now very short in German:

Wer in Deutschland und etlichen anderen europäischen Staaten nicht nur mit Glotze ausgestattet ist und den Scheiß drin glaubt, sondern mal auf ne öffentliche Schule gegangen ist (immer nur Zoo ist ja langweilig) und über diese einen dümmlichen Ausflug in ein Museum, etwa an eine Burgruine angegliedert, gemacht hat, hat Schwerter, Rüstungen usw. zuhauf gesehen, hat gesagt bekommen wie schwer/leicht die waren, usw. Es ist Allgemeinwissen. Wie den Dreisatz rechnen auch - kann auch nicht jeder, aber die gibts überall.
Wenn du die Behauptung aufstellst, es wäre anders, und nicht Allgemeinwissen sondern eben unbekannt oder dergleichen, dann stehst du wie jeder, der eine Behauptung aufstellt vor der Aufgabe selbige zu belegen. Anekdoten sind kein Beleg. Du bist ein Depp.

One argument that is missing kenningstein is that the marketing of MA and the numerous books, equipment and ancillery products filling wherehouses to be sold. In order to create a market you need to have dissatisfaction with what you have and have an upgrade. It is the nature of marketing.

(aside: have you tried Tomahawks? Great for throwing, threatening, and you can do all the backyard firewood that you want. North America has awesome weapons of lore too!!!Racist)

Actually, I guess, propably european populations knowledge on medieval weaponry could be compared to american population's knowledge on tomahawks. maybe this makes my reservation on drama-cunts pseudo-rant easier to understand.

Edit: still this makes drama-**** a fucktard

OK, I switch to German....


mal auf ne öffentliche Schule gegangen ist (immer nur Zoo ist ja langweilig) und über diese einen dümmlichen Ausflug in ein Museum, etwa an eine Burgruine angegliedert, gemacht hat, hat Schwerter, Rüstungen usw. zuhauf gesehen, hat gesagt bekommen wie schwer/leicht die waren, usw. Es ist Allgemeinwissen.
Wenn du die Behauptung aufstellst, es wäre anders, und nicht Allgemeinwissen sondern eben unbekannt oder dergleichen, dann stehst du wie jeder, der eine Behauptung aufstellt vor der Aufgabe selbige zu belegen.
Das Gewicht der Waffen und Rüstungen kann man durchaus im Museum oder in der Schule erfahren, wenn der Lehrer mal darüber bescheid weiß, aber das ist nur ein kleiner Teil des dazugehörigen Wissens. Was lehrt dich denn das Museum (Ausflüge, Ruinen, Mittelaltermärkte) bezüglich der Schmiedetechnik? Wie wurde denn mit den Waffen gekämpft? Die meisten Kuratoren wissen die Kinge geschichtlich einzuschätzen, ihre Maße, Gewicht, kunsthistorische Bedeutung, dann hörts aber auf. Museen wie das Klingenmuseum in Solingen sind eher Ausnahme als die Regel.

Na, wie wurde denn so eine Klinge aus sagen wir mal 13 Jh. geschmiedet? Wie wurde sie denn eingesetzt? Wieviel wog sie denn? Klingenhärte? Stahlanalysen? Stell diese Fragen mal den "erleuchteten allgemeinwissenden Museumsbesuchern", da wirst du dein blaues Wunder erleben. Exakt diesselben Fragen bezüglich der japanischen Schwertern würde wirklich jeder Depp beantworten, aber bei Europa hörts auf.

Wirklich, ich wills hören. Was ist denn dein Stand des Wissens? Du scheinst doch einer dieser Erleuchteten zu sein, die Fragen stehen oben. Wenn als Antwort wieder mal nur Beleidigungen kommen und nichts konkretes, dann ist die Diskussion zu Ende.

*No bad words, racism or other harmful ideas were expressed in this text.

It's only a matter of time before a thread on the denigration of Europe turns into rants in German.

Strange enough, again a Taijiquan-oka who blames me. [B]If Asia is hyped and Europe gets bullshitted it's not racism, right??

Right, it's not. The second a bunch of Chinese people surround you and beat you up because your ancestors used blunt swords, or the moment you're turned down for a job because you're a "stinky barbarian" you might have a case. Until then, you're just upset because you're a mediocre idiot looking to improve your own self-image and self-concept by tying yourself to the accomplishments of whom you imagine your ancestors to be.



But IF Europe is given credit it deserves - oh ur racist, cause if Europe = good, it means you say Asia = crap!! WTF?

So, my takeaways so far are:

1. you consider yourself the victim of racism because some people like Japanese swords. Indeed, you consider this the "denigration of Europe" itself, as can be seen by the title of this thread which, embarrassingly, was on the front page of this site.

2. you're waiting for a big riot to happen so you can kill rioters with your sword.

3. you think "-oka" is a suffix used in Chinese martial arts.


So yeah, like I was saying, hysterical ninny.

Just buy one of these: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-V10YMXSITK0/TfoZL1gjoAI/AAAAAAAACIk/JZ_EzVIWTVk/s1600/gerber1.jpg
It may not be a sword exactly but it is cheap and does cut good

Coincidentally I already have one of those.

Coincidentally I already have one of those.
Maybe it's time for a katana machete:
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/csstoreonline_2185_31621539
$40.

OK, I switch to German....

Das Gewicht der Waffen und Rüstungen kann man durchaus im Museum oder in der Schule erfahren, wenn der Lehrer mal darüber bescheid weiß, aber das ist nur ein kleiner Teil des dazugehörigen Wissens.
He agrees that simple data-knowledge on weaponry and armory , i.e. their weight, can be aquired in museum and school. As I stated.


Was lehrt dich denn das Museum (Ausflüge, Ruinen, Mittelaltermärkte) bezüglich der Schmiedetechnik? Wie wurde denn mit den Waffen gekämpft? Die meisten Kuratoren wissen die Kinge geschichtlich einzuschätzen, ihre Maße, Gewicht, kunsthistorische Bedeutung, dann hörts aber auf. Museen wie das Klingenmuseum in Solingen sind eher Ausnahme als die Regel.
he questions, that there is little to learn about (historical) forging or (historical) way to fight, in museum, reenactment, etc.
I would agree here to, but cannot see, how this was part of the discussion.


Na, wie wurde denn so eine Klinge aus sagen wir mal 13 Jh. geschmiedet? Wie wurde sie denn eingesetzt? Wieviel wog sie denn? Klingenhärte? Stahlanalysen?
he is asking how a blad was forged (1), i.e. in the 13.th century, how it was used (2), the weight (3), the blades thickness (4), steel analysis(5).

I have no books on that at hand, not my field of interest anyway. just what I recall. be my guest.
1. short answer impossible to me, and I am not an expert on this anyway
2. besides old handbooks, noone knows. everybody that watched it is dead now. my guess: fast, stabbling, cutting and tricking. laying on speed.
3. for a singlehanded sword, 700 - 1200 g (2 to 3 pound)
4. sharp end 3 mm, other end 7 mm
5. I have no idea, nor have I noticed it to be on topic.


Stell diese Fragen mal den "erleuchteten allgemeinwissenden Museumsbesuchern", da wirst du dein blaues Wunder erleben. Exakt diesselben Fragen bezüglich der japanischen Schwertern würde wirklich jeder Depp beantworten, aber bei Europa hörts auf.
He's complaining, museum-visitors with basic education won't be able to answer those questions for european swords, but for japanese swords every moron could answer them.

I doubt the answers on japanese swords will be so much more accurate than on any other historical weapon. My guess is, japanese experts ears are going to bleed for the crap people talk about katana no matter what.
well enough answers on european swords seem more likely to me.


Wirklich, ich wills hören. Was ist denn dein Stand des Wissens? Du scheinst doch einer dieser Erleuchteten zu sein, die Fragen stehen oben. Wenn als Antwort wieder mal nur Beleidigungen kommen und nichts konkretes, dann ist die Diskussion zu Ende.
He asks for my enlighted answers on that matter, like it matters. Me calling him without answering would terminate that conversation.
So far I did. Stil, this is no school-test. my point IS NOT about nerdish historic-tool-data. I made my point clear and there evidence is still lacking. and now brat, do me that favor and deliver evidence on what you claim or cut that part.


*No bad words, racism or other harmful ideas were expressed in this text.
Confirmed.

O brave Sir Kenning, take pity on us, and use your sharp, well made European sword to slay this great dragon of ignorance that has been terrorizing the masses!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b0/Bidston_Windmill.jpg/220px-Bidston_Windmill.jpg

Not a dragon, it is a giant.

Fucking ignorant gringo.

Almost forgot:

Dear kenning-****
this is not about other art-practitioneers, be it chinese, japanese, etc.
this is about you and your rubbish statements. you duck answering questions, propably not even reading them, playing drama and heavily exeggerating to the point of irritation.

this is an english-speaking-forum, try to keep it that way, please.

he questions, that there is little to learn about (historical) forging or (historical) way to fight, in museum, reenactment, etc.
I would agree here to, but cannot see, how this was part of the discussion.
Since my first post it was all about weight, length, sharpness, forging techique, steel quality and fighting finesse. Numerous links included.

my point IS NOT about nerdish historic-tool-data. I made my point clear and there evidence is still lacking. and now brat, do me that favor and deliver evidence on what you claim or cut that part.
1. All the people I spoke to and who revealed their ignorance, pretty difficult to give a proof there, since you have to know all of them personally.
2. Respected authors like Stephen Turnbull (http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?10748-This-one-too-strong) and David Nicolle write in favor of East. Random Katana fan sites (http://www.honto-nihonto.com/index.php?article_id=11&clang=0) full of crap. And of course bullshit shows (myth #8) (http://www.kampfkunst-board.info/forum/f65/europ-ische-schwert-fakten-mythen-128548/) on TV.
3. If you ever visit a "Mittelaltermarkt" (= Rennaisance Fair) ask all the guys with swords about weapons 'n stuff, and of course some visitors. There you'll see.

OK, that's it, Im fukin retire. If some CMA practs wanna believe in inferiority of Europe, believe what you want. And not be shocked when you discover that Hollywood movies and Anime are bullsrap, as well as "expert opinions" from Peter Woodward or Alan Baker.

No more trolling and OFFTOPIC there.

Since my first post it was all about weight, length, sharpness, forging techique, steel quality and fighting finesse. Numerous links included.

1. All the people I spoke to and who revealed their ignorance, pretty difficult to give a proof there, since you have to know all of them personally.
2. Respected authors like Stephen Turnbull (http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?10748-This-one-too-strong) and David Nicolle write in favor of East. Random Katana fan sites (http://www.honto-nihonto.com/index.php?article_id=11&clang=0) full of crap. And of course bullshit shows (myth #8) (http://www.kampfkunst-board.info/forum/f65/europ-ische-schwert-fakten-mythen-128548/) on TV.
3. If you ever visit a "Mittelaltermarkt" (= Rennaisance Fair) ask all the guys with swords about weapons 'n stuff, and of course some visitors. There you'll see.

OK, that's it, Im fukin retire. If some CMA practs wanna believe in inferiority of Europe, believe what you want. And not be shocked when you discover that Hollywood movies and Anime are bullsrap, as well as "expert opinions" from Peter Woodward or Alan Baker.

No more trolling and OFFTOPIC there.
Who here said anything about European swords being inferior?? Hell I pretty much said the opposite. At this point you are just:http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_hSs34-d9qO4/S7lGccO9UJI/AAAAAAAAAGU/m4hjQ9kvFJ0/s1600/beat_dead_horse2.jpg

If some CMA practs wanna believe in inferiority of Europe, believe what you want.
Why do you keep bringing up the CMA thing?