I was just wondering if any FMA bullies here do any "twirling" in their training? This thread is to discuss the practicallity or lack thereof with stick twilrling.

In my style of Balintawak Arnis we don't really put much emphasis onn twirling but we do have a group of strikes referred to as shadow fighting that includes some. Shadow fighting is basically a form or kata but it's more or less meant to function like the shadow boxing a boxer does, there's no footwork to the form, it's just a collection of moves performed and grouped together in order based on the types of strikes. Ultimately, the student can perform the strikes in any order and flow from one move to the next varying the footwork, but for grading the strikes are performed in a specific order. Shadow fighting incorporates a few twirling strikes, which are referred to as double strikes, and a triple strike as well. However, recently our styles' GM Bobby Taboada has changed shadow fighting and removed the double/triple strikes. I haven't gotten the full scoop on exactly why he made the change, I only know I was told he wasn't a fan of twirling.

As far as praticality of twirling goes or more specifically the double strikes we do in Balintawak I was taught the motion has a few applications. One, the first strike is a feint used to insight a reaction followed by an immediate full power strike. Another explanation, the first motion can be performed as a bouncing block or strike at the opponents stick followed by a full power strike. In either instance with these two applications the twirling motion looks slightly different than it is usually performed in the shadow fighting form or in other videos i've seen, mainly it's less fluid. These two applications seem to make sense to me but i'll admit I don't really use them in sparring though, of course IMO my FMA group doesn't spar nearly enough but that's another thread.

I'm glad you started this thread! Because I have some questions!!! I've tried searching all over the place, but you FMA guys don't like to talk about stick stuff on line! My brother has been doing stick training and he was showing me some stuff. He does was doing this form called heaven and earth 6. I don't know if that is a normal name, or if just his people call it that. But anyway it is a 6 strike form. You start with both sticks on the right side with the left hand stick in your arm pit. The first strike is with the righ stick which causes you to have your arms crossed in front of you.

Is this normal in most stick systems? The stick tucking and arm crossing. They have a few veriations of that form. I've started practicing it, but just wanted to know if this is normal.

Heaven 6 Heaven & Earth 6 and earth 6 are fairly standard drills, I have seen various differences in them from how I am taught but essentially they are the same (Would need to see what you are doing to comment specifically)

With twirls (Floreti), we do some but they are "show off" finishing moves never really used in any combative sense, we are encouraged to practice them to familiarise ourselves with sticks and as part of Sayaw but it is understood they have no application beyond showing off and feeling comfortable handling sticks


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It all depends on how you define twirling. Generally, when people say 'twirling' they mean making circles with the stick in a way that has no practical application. For instance, I don't know of anyone who calls redondos 'twirling.' If I can explain the practicality of movements that someone would call twirling, does it cease being twirling? If not, could you outline the difference between something like redondos and twirling?


Tim

He does was doing this form called heaven and earth 6. I don't know if that is a normal name, or if just his people call it that.

What you're describing is a striking pattern in sinawali (or double-sinawali is a term sometimes used) which is a method of learning to coordinate double sticks. Some people go overboard trying to figure out every possible way to perform it, but after a while you realize that picking a few and working them with rigour is sufficient.

"Heaven and Earth" in this context just means that you're striking high with the first stick, and low with the second. You could throw all high shots, all low, or some combination thereof.


Is this normal in most stick systems? The stick tucking and arm crossing. They have a few veriations of that form. I've started practicing it, but just wanted to know if this is normal.

It's a fairly common drill in FMA, although not all systems do double-stick. You shouldn't really feel like your arms are crossed - they have their own paths to follow and shouldn't interfere with each other, which is another benefit to the drill, namely managing two sticks so they don't get tangled. I suspect you're keeping your hand wedged too high if you're feeling like they're crossing. Armpit-height really isn't advisable; try holding the hand down by the hip instead.

I was just wondering if any FMA bullies here do any "twirling" in their training? This thread is to discuss the practicallity or lack thereof with stick twilrling.


We might do twirling/arco movements to warm up, and doblete strikes can look a little twirly if done with insufficient power/oomph, but otherwise no.

There's a great moment in one of Dog Brothers' original tapes, where there's a guy who twirls his stick as a recovery movement after he strikes, but he opens his hand a bit to facilitate it. Eventually the stick goes flying, and he finds himself on the losing end of a mauling. Dan Inosanto's old tapes on FMA have Jeff Imada doing that little recovery twirl at the end of every goddamn strike. Drives me nuts to watch.

I suspect you're keeping your hand wedged too high if you're feeling like they're crossing. Armpit-height really isn't advisable; try holding the hand down by the hip instead.

Yep, that's exactly what I was doing, putting the arm right in the pit. I'll start lowering it. Thanks for the tip!



Some people go overboard trying to figure out every possible way to perform it, but after a while you realize that picking a few and working them with rigour is sufficient.



Does this apply to the ways of passing the arm behind the head and accross the chest. I've seen that done, and it looked to me to just be fancy type moves, but I could be wrong. I didn't know if the passing over the head is supposed to be some type of block and then re-chamber technique.

Dan Inosanto's old tapes on FMA have Jeff Imada doing that little recovery twirl at the end of every goddamn strike. Drives me nuts to watch.

I just saw a video of that on youtube, where someone had taped Dan showing figure 8 techniques and then it showed applications with Jeff doing all those twirls. I thought it was just me!

Yep, that's exactly what I was doing, putting the arm right in the pit. I'll start lowering it. Thanks for the tip!



Does this apply to the ways of passing the arm behind the head and accross the chest. I've seen that done, and it looked to me to just be fancy type moves, but I could be wrong. I didn't know if the passing over the head is supposed to be some type of block and then re-chamber technique.

Passing the stick behind the head may be after a payong or umbrella block, so payong would be kind of like the right hand stick making the roof of the house on the left hand side, to move into the next strike you would (or rather could) pass the stick behind the head depending on what angle you wanted to attack

Does this apply to the ways of passing the arm behind the head and accross the chest. I've seen that done, and it looked to me to just be fancy type moves, but I could be wrong. I didn't know if the passing over the head is supposed to be some type of block and then re-chamber technique.

Sounds like you might be describing "diamond sinawali" where the pattern is forehand/backhand/forehand, as opposed to the usual version which is forehand/backhand/backhand

Passing the stick behind the head may be after a payong or umbrella block, so payong would be kind of like the right hand stick making the roof of the house on the left hand side, to move into the next strike you would (or rather could) pass the stick behind the head depending on what angle you wanted to attack

Yeah, that sounds like it. So it is an option to pass behing the head or back the way you came?

Yeah, that sounds like it. So it is an option to pass behing the head or back the way you came?

That's essentially what I was getting at yes, I don't know the Diamond Siniwali mentioned in Chili's post (or at least dont recognise it by that name) so it may be worth looking at that to see if that is similar as well,

One drill we do is hit payong heaven six which is forehand backhand payong (with initial hand) then heaven 6 (forehand backhand backhand), that causes the payong hand to come behind the head ready for the 3rd strike

So, "standard" double sinawali runs:
1. Forehand lobtik
2. Backhand lobtik
3. Backhand witik
Repeat

Diamond sinawali runs:
1. Forehand lobtik
2a. That hand continues its motion, to make a full circle around the head, returning it to its starting point.
2b. Backhand lobtik
3. Forehand lobtik
Repeat

That second forehand lobtik really hits hard thanks to the windup - practice against smaller training partners if possible ;-)

So, "standard" double sinawali runs:
1. Forehand lobtik
2. Backhand lobtik
3. Backhand witik
Repeat

Diamond sinawali runs:
1. Forehand lobtik
2a. That hand continues its motion, to make a full circle around the head, returning it to its starting point.
2b. Backhand lobtik
3. Forehand lobtik
Repeat

That second forehand lobtik really hits hard thanks to the windup - practice against smaller training partners if possible ;-)

That seems similar to the drill I described except we do the 3 heaven steps on each hand after the forehand payong, backhand elestica (if that makes any sense!) using your (much better) descriptive

1. Forehand
2a. Payong circle motion behind head
2b. Backhand elastico
3. Forehand
4. Backhand
5. Backhand
Repeat

actually I may have messed my terminology up here was not 100% sure or lobtic and witik to me is a wrist snap which is not how we drill

actually I may have messed my terminology up here was not 100% sure or lobtic and witik to me is a wrist snap which is not how we drill

Lobtik would be a strike that starts at one side of the body and continues to the other - a slash, essentially. A witik starts on one side of the body and stays on that side - more of a rap or chop motion.

It all depends on how you define twirling. Generally, when people say 'twirling' they mean making circles with the stick in a way that has no practical application. For instance, I don't know of anyone who calls redondos 'twirling.' If I can explain the practicality of movements that someone would call twirling, does it cease being twirling? If not, could you outline the difference between something like redondos and twirling?
Tim

I'm not really sure what redondos are so I can't describe the difference between that and twirling. That's one thing about my style of Arnis that has concerned me in the past. We don't really use any Filipino terms for what we do, we train abanico strikes but they are often just referred to as "flicks". We don't use the term twirling for the few strikes of that variety we do either, we refer to them as double strikes and triple strikes. I mainly used the term twirling to describe what the motion of the double strikes we train look like. I've heard twirling used usually in a negative sense by other eskrimadors, so I'm not even sure that any group actually refers to a particular strike or technique they practice as twirling.

As for your question: "If I can explain the practicality of movements that someone would call twirling, does it cease being twirling?"

I would say no, but I guess ut depends on how you define the word twirling as you mentioned. If you consider twirling to exclusively mean a move that has no martial application than by that definition a move that does have martial application ceases to be considered twirling. If twirling is just a general term for the 360 degree rotation of the stick used for some strikes than I suppose a strike that has practical martial application can still be considered a twirling strike.

I hope I didn't take that and run too far with it and lose everyone. Either way if a twirl is a motion intended to have practical application I question the effectiveness of such a technique.