PDA

View Full Version : Groin Strikes, eye gouges, and other maiming techniques in self defense



Pages : [1] 2 3 4

danno
9/27/2011 12:43am,
http://www.footiewallpapers.com/pics/p/o/posted-by-re-at-9-57-am-0-comments-labels-football-funny-soccer-sport-345x384px.jpg

Kicking a man in the groin will usually cause a lot of pain. It is certainly effective in combat, but it's not a martial panacea.

You may have heard this before: "Training in a martial art like Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is useless for self defense, because you can just attack their groin or gouge their eyes - game over".

These techniques are almost universally banned in sports, which is taken by some to mean that in reality, martial arts like BJJ are ineffective in situations outside the ring where there are no rules. I believe this view is misguided.

There is a common saying in BJJ schools: position before submission. It's a fundamental tenet of the style.

Those of us who train BJJ spend a lot of time learning how to improve our position. From a dominant position we can attack and control our opponent, while it is very difficult for them to do the same to us from an inferior position.

Note that position before submission does not mean improving and maintaining position is more important than actually finishing the fight - defeating the opponent is always paramount. But in order to win, putting ourselves at a great advantage by taking up a position such as the mount will greatly increase our chances of winning. Victory from a bad position is very difficult indeed.

When we add striking to the ground game, exactly the same principle applies. We should strive to achieve a dominant position if we want to employ the most effective strikes: it's position before striking. Doesn't quite have the same ring to it, but whatever.

Many people think that a groin grab would nullify all this. But again, we need to remember: position before groin attack. Watch Keith Hackney establish side control and cause some "discomfort" with a groin attack on Joe Son at UFC 4, way back when groin strikes were permitted:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57Mva-3n7TY

Now, I can imagine some who may watch that video and say that Joe Son could have eye-gouged Keith. But they'd be forgetting our principle - from a dominant position, it's easier to eye gouge too. From side control, Keith would be better able to control Joe and eye gouge him, rather than the other way around. Quite simply, those who are better at establishing a dominant position on the ground are better able to apply any kind of technique.

When inventing techniques for self defense, people tend to get a little groin-crazy and at times will substitute more effective techniques for something which may be less effective in reality because there is a blind belief that going for the gonads is a lot easier and more devastating than it really is. A good example is the video below:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pm6wiVnIxQA

It's actually quite difficult to access the groin with a decent strike from that position. There are much more effective ways to bring someone down for a reversal. Also, pulling the hair in the way they've demonstrated allows the top fighter to post an arm out during the roll, which is the most common way of countering it.

Here is an interesting video where Rorion Gracie fights a Hapkido instructor who attempts to grab his groin twice from an inferior po (Rorion's comment about BJJ being the only style to effectively address ground fighting is just typical Gracie self-promotion):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RawPYGzYOQ

And an amusing little experiment where a young man bravely puts his balls on the line in the name of science:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOavpXKGbdI

One more video about balls for you. Draculino expresses his opinion about groin attacks and positional strategy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxZKZsqWdFw

Apart from forgetting about position and the tendency of some to substitute more effective techniques for less effective ones, there is another problem. Even when you do apply an eye or groin attack successfully, your opponent may not be instantly finished.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_SoiOkFxerw/Tnc4enIn1jI/AAAAAAAAAC8/uNzbIgkUm58/s1600/yuki-nakai.jpg

In 1995, Yuki Nakai (pictured above) entered an MMA knockout tournament, and his first opponent was Gerard Gordeau. Gerard illegally eye gouged Yuki, which left him permanently blind in his right eye. Yuki continued to fight and won by heel hook in the fourth round.

His next opponent that night was Craig Pittman, an american wrestler with a 100 pound weight advantage. Yuki won via armbar.

In the third and final bout, Yuki fought BJJ legend Rickson Gracie and lost at 6:22 in the first round via rear naked choke.

The reason I've been using the word maim in the first place, is because by that I mean something which causes an injury which may or may not be serious, but doesn't necessarily incapacitate your opponent. There is no guarantee that maiming will end a fight.

But please make sure you read this part carefully - There's nothing wrong with maiming per se.

In fact, many techniques from styles such as Judo, Sambo, BJJ and catch wrestling are maiming techniques too: an armbar when executed to completion is no longer a submission (where one fighter gives up before serious injury and the fight stops). It actually results in a broken or dislocated arm - congrats, you've just maimed your opponent.

Also, in the same way Yuki fought on with a damaged eye, a fighter with a badly damaged limb can sometimes continue fighting. Forrest Griffin broke his arm in an MMA fight, only to come back and win by knockout. Randy couture did the same thing vs Gabriel Gonzaga. There is a long list of such instances.

So why use maiming techniques at all if the enemy may happily fight on and defeat you? Well, now you're fighting someone with an injury. Obviously, this may help you gain the upper hand in a real fight. There's no reason a submission fighter has to stop after the first break - you may break their other arm, gouge their eyes and break their legs, too.

Maiming isn't the end goal (that is, in the typical street fight or self defense situation we usually imagine). It simply helps us towards incapacitating our opponent, or at least making them give up. If it is too difficult to finish them off immediately, the next best option may be to "soften them up" with injuries until it's possible to apply a finishing technique.

It's a common strategy in combat sports. One may have to break down the other fighter for a number of rounds before scoring a knockout or submission. Ideally, the fight would be over as fast as possible. But we don't always have that luxury against a similarly skilled opponent.

I've focused mostly on grappling. What about striking? Could you just kick a Muay Thai fighter in the nuts to nullify everything they have learned such as timing, judgment of distance, ability to read body movements to predict their opponent's next move, power, speed, mental and physical toughness, conditioning, feints, combinations? Or maybe they'll be better at kicking the groin than someone who has only kicked a stationary pad at groin height in their training?

OK, one more testicle video. This is yours truly copping a massive knee which lifted me off the ground and bent my groin guard inside out. I dropped to the ground partly because it hurt a lot, but more because I was scared that my testicles had been crushed. I wanted to make sure that everything was OK down there. I was a little slower after returning to the match, but what bothered me more at the time was the fact that I hurt my ankle when a kick landed with my toes. Skip to the 5 minute mark if you want to see the knee.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ugv_pE7fRJI

Remember, I'm not saying groin strikes or eye gouges are ineffective. I'm saying they need to be considered from a broader strategic perspective. Despite what some may have you believe, testicles are not the answer to every martial problem from every position in every situation.

Originally posted on Danno's blog:

Groin Strikes, eye gouges, and other maiming techniques in self defense (http://danielkeating.blogspot.com/2011/09/groin-strikes-eye-gouges-and-other.html)

Rzero
9/27/2011 6:40am,
Good article.

Groin strikes and eye gouges are overrated, especially on the ground. Going for the trachea is sometimes easier, and more effective in my experience. Just jam two fingers right above the collar bones and dig in deep. Its pretty hard to repress the cough/gag reflex longer than a few seconds (Lebell excluded).

All of this stuff falls in the Plan B category anyway. It should not be ones focus. I've seen a woman escape from a hold from a man twice her size by digging her fingernails in his chest and raking his manboobs, and a man getting soccer kicked in the nuts without even so much as flinching. Stuff like this is too unreliable to depend on.

danno
9/27/2011 7:20am,
Going for the trachea is sometimes easier, and more effective in my experience. Just jam two fingers right above the collar bones and dig in deep. Its pretty hard to repress the cough/gag reflex longer than a few seconds (Lebell excluded).

sure, but i'd like to repeat - position before trachea attack.


All of this stuff falls in the Plan B category anyway.

it is. the plan B stuff may help you achieve plan A though. if you can't go for the end game immediately, pick the lowest hanging fruit.


I've seen a woman escape from a hold from a man twice her size by digging her fingernails in his chest and raking his manboobs, and a man getting soccer kicked in the nuts without even so much as flinching

yep. some people will run away if you so much as slap them in the face, others won't stop until they're put to sleep in one way or another.

Kintanon
9/27/2011 9:17am,
Can anyone find Part 1 of that Draculino video? It was the one about biting your way out of triangles as I recall...

Bad Apple
9/27/2011 10:31am,
TYVM danno. I will likely link to this in the future as (citation for the needy)

danno
9/27/2011 10:40am,
he mentions biting out of a triangle in part 2.

the only other video with "provoking a giant" in the title is this one:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH_KMladBi0

Kintanon
9/27/2011 10:42am,
There is a part 1 that was linked somewhere on this site once before. But I haven't been able to find it since then.

danno
9/27/2011 10:43am,
TYVM danno. I will likely link to this in the future as (citation for the needy)

hope it helps.

danno
9/27/2011 10:45am,
There is a part 1 that was linked somewhere on this site once before. But I haven't been able to find it since then.

perhaps taken down? i can't find it either.

danno
9/29/2011 5:28am,
one of my mates from training just made this comment when i posted the article on facebook:

"If you're striking/gouging from a poor position you're just giving your opponent ideas."

gregaquaman
9/29/2011 9:51am,
I do have a few positions that I will tend to go straight for the deadly with.

Grabbed from behind. I will pretty much squirrel grip every time. Especially if I am being choked. It dosent cost me anything. I can still fight into side mount and as a general rule the guy lets go quick.

Being bitten. I nose gouge. I personally have not seen a more effective counter.

Being eye gouged I bend fingers back same thing just seems to get rid of it quick.

And I have front choked people but that is just a variation of collar and cuff.

But as Danno has said You need to have an overall strategy not just the deadly.

danno
9/29/2011 10:42am,
Grabbed from behind. I will pretty much squirrel grip every time. Especially if I am being choked. It dosent cost me anything. I can still fight into side mount and as a general rule the guy lets go quick.

sounds ok from standing. you must be pretty careful not to let the choke sink in too far?

do you have trouble when people are wearing jeans or whatever? i get the impression that with some modern clothes it's easier to strike the groin than grab a handful.

you reminded me of this btw:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=688_1259911803


Being bitten. I nose gouge. I personally have not seen a more effective counter.

that's interesting, you never hear people talking about teh deadly nose gouge.

do you think an eye gouge might work as well or better? but i suppose you wouldn't go for that on the job because of the potential for injury.

gregaquaman
9/29/2011 11:26am,
sounds ok from standing. you must be pretty careful not to let the choke sink in too far?

do you have trouble when people are wearing jeans or whatever? i get the impression that with some modern clothes it's easier to strike the groin than grab a handful..

You can keep one hand on the choking arm.

Ultimately I am trying to step my leg behind them and collapse the whole thing into a sort of side mount and then work from there. sort of a vingativa if you were a capo guy but I have seen variations of the throw in a lot of different styles.

So the grab works even if i catch pants or inner leg. Just the groin moves them faster. Striking is iffy because it has to make them let go or it dosent work.


you reminded me of this btw:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=688_1259911803



that's interesting, you never hear people talking about teh deadly nose gouge.

do you think an eye gouge might work as well or better? but i suppose you wouldn't go for that on the job because of the potential for injury.

I find the nose gouge really effective.

I have only been bitten for reals twice (And the nose gouge worked better) but i have played with this on a bit. The best way to test it I have found is to get somone to bite their own arm and see what gets them off quicker.(they dont have to bite hard to lock down their jaw) Finger in the eye takes a lot of pressure if the guy is ready for it. (And yes bad look for me)

Just quickly with the nose if have never had to stick my finger up the thing just sort of scrape it off their face.

danharr
9/29/2011 4:33pm,
Great breakdown and analysis not only of testicle attacks but of peoples opinions about BJJ.

RynoGreene
9/29/2011 7:28pm,
My brother trained in a bit of the deadly Chun while in college, and was completely convinced by his instructor that going "completely crazy", biting, gouging, nut shotting and scratching, you'd be able to negate any grappler's advantage. So after drinking a bit too much, I invited him to go crazy on me. (This was very stupid, but my brother really ticks me off when he's sober, let alone drinking.) We started from several common grappling positions, just to test his theory. (Guard bottom, in someone's guard, under mount, on mount, side control, etc.)

It was quite comical. Almost any time he could eye gouge me, I could also eye gouge him. He had never thought of this. He managed to scratch my eyelids enough that they scabbed later, (fucking annoying) while I was more gentle in my simulated gouges. Under mount was the only time he could get me without me getting him, but it allowed for a very easy bump escape with both of his hands occupied. In almost every position, eye gouging was a bad idea as it just presented arms for arm barring, or made for an easy sweep/escape due to poor base.

Nut shots are just annoying, he couldn't get anything clean in.

Biting was actually the most distracting. If he had side control on me, it was most definitely a concern. If someone has a decent side control, they could definitely nip you. From almost any other position, it's not big deal. Going for the bite from top mount upsets your base, once again, easy bump. Under side control > Shoulder cross face. Guard bottom > too far away. In guard > hip control limits it. North-South > I can bite you too mother fucker.

He did piss me off with the eyelid scratching, so I just started achilles locking the **** out of him. Ironically, he was a pretty good high school wrestler. If he would have just worried about wrestling instead of the deadly Chun gouge/nut/bite finish, I'm sure he would have done a hell of a lot better.

danno
9/29/2011 7:59pm,
You can keep one hand on the choking arm.

Ultimately I am trying to step my leg behind them and collapse the whole thing into a sort of side mount and then work from there. sort of a vingativa if you were a capo guy but I have seen variations of the throw in a lot of different styles.

So the grab works even if i catch pants or inner leg. Just the groin moves them faster. Striking is iffy because it has to make them let go or it dosent work.

nice, so you're kinda doing this with a squirrel grip to help things along:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPaWWuKDfjc

i really agree on the grab vs strike thing.


I find the nose gouge really effective.

I have only been bitten for reals twice (And the nose gouge worked better) but i have played with this on a bit. The best way to test it I have found is to get somone to bite their own arm and see what gets them off quicker.(they dont have to bite hard to lock down their jaw) Finger in the eye takes a lot of pressure if the guy is ready for it. (And yes bad look for me)

Just quickly with the nose if have never had to stick my finger up the thing just sort of scrape it off their face.

if someone bites me i'm going to try it.