I think the x-block is used to set up a armlock defence against being smacked over the head by a big guy with a stick in the gracie self-defence handbook.

Remember how I said my BJJ class is held in a big-ass McDojo?

Yesterday I had my first class, while another "karate" class was held in the other room. Every now and then I'd hear the head instructor yelling stuff (at other adults, mind you). I think there was some anti-grappling. I heard "JUDO.... something something... USELESS!!" although I can't be sure. Then I saw in the window a reflection of the head instructor holding the opposite arm of another guy by his wrist (instructor right, guy left), then kicking the guy with his right foot in the head. Quite possibly the hardest and riskiest thing you can do in that situation.

PL

w i d e....s t a n c e s.

>Quite possibly the hardest and riskiest thing you can do in that situation.


Aside from nasal sex.

Most of the stuff I was taught in Aikido was pretty bad, some of it was usefull, but only a small percentage. Anyway the worst offender was a move where you lead the guy round through 360 degrees by his arm while he stumbles around like that drunk Shun guy from Virtua Fighter. Then you finsh with a lock that wouldn't work on anyone. That's the worst thing I've been taught.

... than maybe it will work. I actually thought this technique was completely stupid until I actually was TRYING to grab someones hand and stumbled around trying to get it.

I think most Aikido teachers would freely admit that it's just an exercise and you wouldn't want to actually use it.

Omar.

My point was that particular Aikido instructor had no basis to demonstrate the techniuqe. Because he was doing it against people who couldn't kick to save their lives.

And I have a big problem with the whole' just step out of the way' concept. If your up against a conditioned striker, the notion that you can just step out of the way and let a kick or punch go sailing past you is absurd. It is just not realistic at all. My time training in Kyokushin and before when I did boxing has shown me that.

Oh and where is that bullshit artist Shumagorath ?
He still has yet to answer my question.


Dodging kicks (to the upper body) with footwork is NOT that hard. The deal is that not many arts teach kicks well since they devalue them so much.

For the sake of demonstration and practice, using inexperienced people is probably fine. But you're right that to fine tune the technique, you need someone who kicks well.

Students are students. You don't need an experienced student to start teaching them techniques. The purpose of class is not to "prove" anything.

I would say that Aikido teacher is perfectly OK doing what he was doing. So long as HE HIMSELF was a decent kicker and act as a competent uke once the students were refined enough to do this live.

the one laying on the ground after it was chopped off?

You block the arm holding the knife. A following twisting motion can give you control of the guys arms and allow you to throw.

BTW, we worked on knife defenses last week in Aikido. And my sensei didn't like that one. She advocated one handed blocks followed up by hand control or atemi.

http://www.varmouries.com/wildrose/fiore/65.jpg



X block follow up.

Stop attack, seize wrist with right hand, pull through and under your left arm, lean back and place your weight on their arm violently. This will jack up their arm. (Or make them eat dirt, at the very least.)

Edited to add: Image lifted from the the VArmouries translation of Fiore. http://www.varmouries.com/wildrose/fiore

Don't forget Talhoffer-fu and it's techniques for fighting in a greased leather suit while standing in a hole in the ground.

The guy who advised me to major in one of the liberal arts ... does that count?

Defense against takedown = Kiai scream (no, really. It seems that it should give you a different density, so you'll weight more...sometimes, I think some people gets their MA theory straight from a 50's issue of Batman)


Actually, I was in a judo class with the crazy old dude who used to compete a lot when he was a lad in Japan, who said that the kiai was great in tournaments. He said that people get so wound up and focused and uptight that if you are jockeying for grips and position and you can't get in, do this ...

(screams like a loonball)

... If they aren't expecting it and have a "what the ****?!?!?!" reaction, there's your opening and WHAM!

So DAMN!!! Stop hatin' on the kiai, dizzle.

http://www.varmouries.com/wildrose/fiore/65.jpg



X block follow up.

Stop attack, seize wrist with right hand, pull through and under your left arm, lean back and place your weight on their arm violently. This will jack up their arm. (Or make them eat dirt, at the very least.)

Edited to add: Image lifted from the the VArmouries translation of Fiore. http://www.varmouries.com/wildrose/fiore

So you stop the attack in the crux of the X of your forearms, then, with kind of a downward shrugging motion you move your hands down, running the right one up the arm and the left one down it, leaving you with a standing armbar type thing . . . with your arms crossed?

Or arms crossed, right arm toward you, you stop the attack in the crux of your xed arms, then like the right hand down the arm to the wrist, moving the left hand out from under their arm and dragging them into an armlock?

That makes a little more sense, but it still seems like you're folding up your hands and getting set to take a knife blow...also, the idea that you're only going to get a shallow cut on your arms seems predicated on the knife being held a very specific way....

I don't think this is a practical technique. It doesn't seem any more likely to land you in a good hold then blocking with one hand and trying to take their wrist...but it offers more risk...

Incidentally, earlier today, someone who really loves how the x-block looks tried to tell me it was a good defense against a baseball bat swung downward at the head :shock:

Well you're not so much sitting there waiting for the strike. It's a very agressive defense. If your hand goes high and I "read" that you're going to strike from there I rush against you as you strike. Rather then throwing my arms up and waiting for it, in my experiance knife sparring is very pre-emptive. You have to be a fairly aggressive or you'll be decieved by feints.


Anyways; At the instant you feel their arm against yours you react or they'll fly off and attack somewhere else. When I do the X I do it with my right wrist in front (Closest to them) When you feel them turn your hand inwards and grab their wrist to prevent them from flying off.

Now the cool thing about this grip is that their blade will be on back the back of your right wrist and will be somewhat flat, hence why they will lack edge alignment to really cut you more then superficially. In addition to this your wrist positioned between their hand hand and blade will cause them to lose a lot of control over the knife (and their arm...for that matter) due to your stronger leverage.


Having grabbed their wrist you pull it down towards your right hip as you turn, and add your left hand to the grip as you fall back onto their arm.


Thats how you do it. I think you might be misinterpretting it . Basically he's positioning dudes elbow under his armpit and violently falling back onto it for an instant break, not a lock.


In simpler terms
You want to do the X at their wrist, right arm closest to them, then you turn your hand slightly to grab their wrist. Secure it with your left hand as you position it under your arm, fall back onto it and break the arm.


As for getting cut, they will not have the edge alignment to really cut you, the flat of their blade will be on your wrist, edge contact is fairly incedental. In the scuffling you might get cut if their edge turns somewhat and digs into your wrist but one thing to keep in mind is that getting even a decently severe cut to the back of your wrist cut isnt very much of an issue when your main objective is defending your life.

Grabbing with one hand is admittedly used much more often. I think the main advantage of the X block is that it provides more area to "catch" but comes with disadvantages in that it involves using both your hands and makes counter attacking diffacult.

The plus side is that it flows very nicely into this and some other pretty cool stuff.

I dont use the X block often in knife sparring, but I can make it work ok.

Probably not against a baseball bat..however... ;)




So you stop the attack in the crux of the X of your forearms, then, with kind of a downward shrugging motion you move your hands down, running the right one up the arm and the left one down it, leaving you with a standing armbar type thing . . . with your arms crossed?

Or arms crossed, right arm toward you, you stop the attack in the crux of your xed arms, then like the right hand down the arm to the wrist, moving the left hand out from under their arm and dragging them into an armlock?

That makes a little more sense, but it still seems like you're folding up your hands and getting set to take a knife blow...also, the idea that you're only going to get a shallow cut on your arms seems predicated on the knife being held a very specific way....

I don't think this is a practical technique. It doesn't seem any more likely to land you in a good hold then blocking with one hand and trying to take their wrist...but it offers more risk...

Incidentally, earlier today, someone who really loves how the x-block looks tried to tell me it was a good defense against a baseball bat swung downward at the head :shock:

OK, but aren't you bulling up into them, then stopping your momentum and pulling them forward/ outward? I guess I don't see the advantage to doing this with two hands . . .

And if your right arm is closest to them, how do you secure the wrist with your left arm? If your right arm is grabbing their wrist, what's your left hand doing to help? Closing around the blade? Do you move your left hand around the gripping right hand and secure their elbow with it?

Re:edge position, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you better lock the **** out of that wrist . . . can't they just turn the knife a few degrees and hook it into your arm the second you grab their arm? What if they make a tiny adjustment and just target your hands during the "X" portion, which still seems very static to me...

Are you saying you just grab their arm with both hands at once?

You rush in, block, and in the same instant that you block the attack grab and tear their arm down to your side. It's actually pretty fast and fluid.

There probably isnt a reason you couldnt do it with only one hand. Most of the catches I do are with my left hand and I see no reason why you couldnt do just as well with the right. There are techniques where having two hands up doing the blocking is important for the follow up. I think this one would work somewhat with one hand, but probably better with two because your left hand is further securing the arm



Your right hand is the one doing the securing and pulling them down, your left hand will further secure it as you transition to pull the hand to hip level. I cant remember exactly where I put it, but I think I generally have it grabbing the thumb side of their hand (where the pommel of the knife would be) This would lessen their range of motion with the knife even further and prevent them from slipping out.

When you transition and start pulling them down to your hip, the leverage of your wrist will force the blade of their knife up, and their thumb towards the ground. You dont have to actively do this, it will just happen as you pull their arm into position.

There are a couple important things to keep in mind about getting cut:

The first one is a cut on the arm is not a big deal when compared to getting stabbed. You're much more likely do die from getting stabbed in the neck/torso then you are from cutting cut on the arm.

The second one is that knives aren't light sabres or chainsaws. Placing the edge isnt enough to make an effective cut. You have to have good edge alignment, a good solid draw or push that stays on target for the time of the cut. This is very hard to accomplish when your wrist is being controlled and the blade of the knife is in the position I am talking about.


In addition to that, most modern knives are single edged and will probably be used with the edge facing outwards towards the opponent, hence the spine of the blade will be what is against your wrist for the most part.

As for what if they target your hands...eh I find it unlikely that they will be able to redirect a truly commited attack in time to change the target like that. Commitment is everything in knife sparring. A lot of people have a tendency to fall into a game of "knife tag" where the first touch wins so they make lots of snippy little cuts and thrusts that are almost impossible to stop. Commited attacks are differant, they're a lot harder to suddenly change the direction of.

Anyways, we could play what if all day, what if they feint a knife attack and then kick you in the groin? ;) You simply do what you can to stay alive., obviously nothing is fool proof.

Like I said, the X is not static, you are actively rushing against them with it as soon as you see them going high. The X isnt going to be there for more then a split second. Aggressiveness is the key in making any of this **** work.



OK, but aren't you bulling up into them, then stopping your momentum and pulling them forward/ outward? I guess I don't see the advantage to doing this with two hands . . .

And if your right arm is closest to them, how do you secure the wrist with your left arm? If your right arm is grabbing their wrist, what's your left hand doing to help? Closing around the blade? Do you move your left hand around the gripping right hand and secure their elbow with it?

Re:edge position, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you better lock the **** out of that wrist . . . can't they just turn the knife a few degrees and hook it into your arm the second you grab their arm? What if they make a tiny adjustment and just target your hands during the "X" portion, which still seems very static to me...

Are you saying you just grab their arm with both hands at once?

I guess I'd have to see a video of it. . .or maybe it's the strike this is being used against I'm not clear on. . .