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nab
6/03/2011 11:46am,
Below is an honest rating of Alan Lee's Chinese Kung-Fu, Wu-Su Association in New York City. The ratings are based on this site's criteria with brief explanations of why I assigned each number. In full disclosure I am an instuctor there and have been studying at this school for approximately 9 years. Please come observe a class if you are interested/curious, there is absolutely no commitment.

Aliveness: 8: Hard contact with reasonable safety gear and/or limited to one range of fighting (standup/grappling)

-We fight hard contact on a regular basis with a groin cup as the only safety gear. There is ground fighting and grappling, head strikes are done with light contact

Equipment: 5: Basic relevant essentials, may be heavily used

-We train with minimal equipment, most is traditional in nature (weapons, hand and body conditioning tools, etc.) although we do have some weight and training gear

Gym Size: 8: Plenty of room to roll/spar without tripping over people

-Approximatley 2,500 square feet that is owned and exclusively used by our school

Instructor/Student ratio: 8: Smaller classes, instructor or highly qualified (master level) assistant instructors in small groups

-A Master level (25+ years) instructor oversees every class, under which there are 5-10 degree holders (5-20 years each) that teach the class in groups based on experience level

Atmosphere/Attitude:

-Not sure about the rating system here. Our school is self-professed "military style" in that a high level of discipline is expected and enforced, the attitude in training is serious and focused although there is a congenial atmosphere off the floor and in the school in general including "community events" such as an annual banquet, training in the park, etc.

Striking Instruction: 6: Comprehensive striking (all ranges) or superior single range striking with success in local/regional competition or practical application

-Difficult to rate in these categories as our school does not actively promote itself in tournaments (individuals may enter) but striking is central to our instruction and students/instructors have used it effectivley in real life situations (including myself)

Grappling Instruction: 5: Limited single sub-range (standing, clinch, ground only).

-Again we do not compete. We teach traditional Chin-Na-Fa, throwing and ground fighting to all students although it is not emphasized nearly as much as striking techniques

Weapons: 5: Light continuous alive sparring (negligible pain/risk).

-We teach a wide variety of traditional weapons as well as how to improvise modern and everyday items. Fighting with weapons is controlled.

In addition to the above categories it is important to note that we also provide instruction in breathing, meditation and internal development exercies.

www.kungfuwusu.com (http://www.kungfuwusu.com)

Cullion
6/06/2011 2:41pm,
I don't think you should give yourself an aliveness rating of 8 if you're primarily teaching striking but never go hard to the head and never compete in full contact. Look at the examples given for a rating of 8 or 9 for a school primarily teaching striking (i.e. Boxing and Muay Thai bouts).

weechey
6/06/2011 2:49pm,
Yea...I saw some of those videos of the sparring on the site ... the problem is that all of you are essentially drinking from the same kool-aid, and the sparring contains moves that would get you shut down quickly in any boxing/muay thai/etc gym. BJJ guys routinely compete against people who come from wrestling/judo/sambo backgrounds, muay thai guys often stack up against boxers/kickboxing/karate/etc. An aliveness score of 8 or more in those schools makes sense, given that the strategies/techniques have been tested in many different forums. Unless you have some videos suggesting otherwise, a score of 3-4 seems more appropriate.

Cullion
6/06/2011 2:52pm,
I hadn't seen the videos. Now I have. That's not aliveness 8.

It is Fake
6/06/2011 3:14pm,
They videos are 4-6. I'd have to see school, non-demo or testing sparring to go a six.

Ming Loyalist
6/06/2011 3:20pm,
so your school doesn't enter anyone into the full contact baltimore lei tai tournaments?

Cullion
6/06/2011 3:53pm,
They videos are 4-6. I'd have to see school, non-demo or testing sparring to go a six.

Those videos are barely more alive and no more intense than 2 man forms.
In the original rating example a TKD match featuring a knockout is given a 6. This Kung Fu school's clips aren't close to a 6.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey1oPAG66sk

That's very flowery point sparring, at best.

This video is given as an example of 4-5


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Sq4LLW_MuA

I think that light-continuous Karate sparring is more alive than the Kung Fu school's video. The karate guys aren't pausing to give each other a chance to pull off flowery techniques that start and finish in something approaching classical stances, whereas the Kung Fu guys obviously are.

Unless they've got something more real than the videos, then it's 3-4 I'd say.

It is Fake
6/06/2011 4:59pm,
The one I looked at is a four to five rating:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7YQJpeFnFg&feature=player_embedded

The dead video IIRC was a Kung Fu demo similar to this one. Yes, I found this video and the missing one in a post that led to the video FAQ. I say four to six because those are demos. Demos are extremely controlled because, you are trying to test or gain more students. Yes, that sentence is bad. Still I didn't give them a six. I said I'd need something specific to give them a six.

Cullion
6/06/2011 5:02pm,
That's not close to 5. They're doing monkey rolls around on the floor and jump spinning kicks whilst the other guy stands still. It's XMA dude.

p.s. you noticed from their website the grandmaster is able to teach 26 styles (none of them named) and they use the 'traditional chinese badge system of grades' ?

It is Fake
6/06/2011 5:14pm,
That's not close to 5.What's the group in the FAQ you referenced? 4-5. That video is 4-5 according to the FAQ.




p.s. you noticed from their website the grandmaster is able to teach 26 styles (none of them named) and they use the 'traditional chinese badge system of grades' ?Irrelevant to what we are discussing.

Cullion
6/06/2011 5:18pm,
What's the group in the FAQ you referenced? 4-5. That video is 4-5 according to the FAQ.

"4-5: Light contact continuous sparring (negligible pain/risk)."
Look at the example given under 4-5 which I already posted above. They're not pausing to let each other do a pretty technique like the kung fu class are. They're not using any power, there's negligible risk of pain, but the tempo is not compliant. There aren't time gaps you can drive a monkey roll or a 'badass' jump spinning kick through.

They're doing something more like 3.
"2-3: Compliant partner drills, board breaking, point sparring"

What we're looking at is on the borderline between a compliant partner drill and point sparring. It's improvised, but it's being done with the stilted tempo of people trying to choreograph a fight scene, so that their training partner has a chance to use cinematic techniques. What they're doing would get them owned in a light-continuous point tournament. What they're doing is improvisational XMA.

It is Fake
6/06/2011 5:23pm,
.

Look at the example given under 4-5 which I already posted above. Yes that one is a five. The one I used is a four.


They're doing something more like 3.You said 3-4 I said 4-5. If you want to use three now cool we will just continue to disagree.

nab
6/07/2011 10:38am,
My internet is down at home and Youtube is disabled at work. Once I am able to review the model rating videos I will update my school's rating appropriatley.

Suffice to say for the moment that the couple clips on our website were chosen specifically because they feature some exciting looking techniques. They are from a public demonstration to showcase some of what we teach. They are NOT compliant or pre-arrangered and such flowery movements rarely make it into in-class fighting as they are hard to get off without opening yourself to counterstiking.

Also, I erroneously stated that we have 2,500 sq feet of space. In fact, the school is twice that, at 5,000+.

It is Fake
6/07/2011 11:18am,
That's why I reserved full judgment. It doesn't mean that it will be higher or change an opinion. You should get some video of actual class sparring. The first one Cullion posted is a 2-3 and definitely compliant. We disagree on the one I posted. Still, we have seen nothing that warrants anything above the 4-5 classification.

nab
6/07/2011 8:36pm,
I reviewed the sample videos and feel a 6 for Aliveness is more accurate rating than my original 8. Feel free to disagree based on our posted videos, but again I am genuinely trying to give an honest appraisal- remember, I didn't give my school any tens and have no problem assigning low numbers where appropriate.


My internet is down at home and Youtube is disabled at work. Once I am able to review the model rating videos I will update my school's rating appropriately.

Suffice to say for the moment that the couple clips on our website were chosen specifically because they feature some exciting looking techniques. They are from a public demonstration to showcase some of what we teach. They are NOT compliant or pre-arrangered and such flowery movements rarely make it into in-class fighting as they are hard to get off without opening yourself to counterstiking.

Also, I erroneously stated that we have 2,500 sq feet of space. In fact, the school is twice that, at 5,000+.

Ming Loyalist
6/07/2011 8:57pm,
i still want to know the answer to my question. has your school sent fighters into full contact lei tai tournaments? also i would like to know if you have had any fighters compete in sanctioned sanda ring fights.