Instead of pointing out mistakes let me shine a light on what is actually happening and how it is a cultural phenomenon and not a rules or athleticism one. First the short version:

Amurika sez:
"Winning isn't everything, its the only thing."

Japanese say:
" Yamato-damashii is everything."

Basically, because of the American sport mindset the fighters know that winning is better than proving something. The Japanese mindset is that not facing your weakness is cowardly. In the case of MMA that would mean not standing with a striker and not wrestling with a grappler. You may lose but you gain respect for facing your weakness.


Two recent articles that perfectly illustrate this:
Ben Askren: "...in my mind, a fight’s about winning, not about putting on a show. "
http://middleeasy.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4313%3Aben-askren-says-hey-loser-a-fight-is-about-winning-not-putting-on-a-show&catid=34%3Aorganizations&Itemid=106

Enson Inoue: "It was like in my fight with Igor Vovchanchyn. I knew he was an incredible striker, and for a moment in the beginning I said to myself, 'F--- this,' and clinched. After about 30 seconds, although it felt like about five minutes, I realized that this was a test of my spirit so I stood back and traded punches with him."
http://www.mmafighting.com/2011/04/06/enson-inoue-discusses-charity-work-life-in-evacuation-centers/?a_dgi=aolshare_twitter

So there now shut up about rules and consider the wider cultural implications of the athletes.

And to that extension, other fighting styles are in fact superior, and simple rule changes would not only make other arts more viable, but contenders.

If english isn't your first language I'm sorry I misunderstood your previous posts but this part is pretty clear. Now before you post a response go watch RioHeroes on Dailymotion and count the number of submission wins.
http://www.dailymotion.com/user/rioheroes/1

Eye gouges and throat punches? Why do people, in 2011, still believe these are instant fight equalizers? Why do people still think MMA didn't or hasn't evolved? Am I the only one that remembers when BJJ was considered the end all be all and few years later everyone was trying to get better at striking to have a better all around game? I guess I've been watching the wrong MMA.

Clearly you haven't been watching any Josh Koscheck fights.

He uses eye gouges and throat punches effectively? If so I stand corrected.

The rules limit what guys can do in terms of striking, and makes it more proficient to be on the bottom.

no, it is not better to be on the bottom. ending up on your back with someone in your guard is plan D - it's what you do when everything else has fucked up. fighters who intentionally pull guard in MMA are very rare because it puts you at a disadvantage.

it's simply a matter of trying to make the best of a bad situation.

if you're going to fight in MMA you need to be good at using the guard, because eventually you're going to end up on your back.

He uses eye gouges and throat punches effectively? If so I stand corrected.

Yep. He gets extra rest periods by faking that he got hit badly by them, and then revenge pokes them far worse than any accidental poke he may have copped.

If english isn't your first language I'm sorry I misunderstood your previous posts but this part is pretty clear. Now before you post a response go watch RioHeroes on Dailymotion and count the number of submission wins.
http://www.dailymotion.com/user/rioheroes/1

Look at my first post (And yes, I was born in the former USSR, the Ukraine so typing tends to be a bit, how shall I say, difficult) in this thread. Number 7 on page one. Submission fighting is superior, do not get me wrong. But that has nothing to do with what I said, or what people are trying to disagree with me on.

I simply stated that with rules, this becomes a sport. The arts need to adapt and change to fit into the rule set. With these conditions, the best art does not prevail, but the athlete who preforms most effectively under the rule set wins. Plain and simple.

I stated BJJ had the leg up. Why? All this other rhetoric I have spewed was an attempt to explain. But it is so much more simple. The organization has set it up so the rules, judging, or what ever else you want to blame give BJJ the advantage. If you were fighting any person, or martial art practitioner not inside the UFC octogon, another outcome would prevail.

Why has BJJ not been completely dominant in Japan? Wrestling does well under different rules. The sport of the UFC's branded MMA is not martial arts anymore. If a Muay Thai fighter jumped into a boxing ring would he win? No, different rules. The same principle difference is the same, that this is now another sport, and due to this the best person to train to participate under these rules will win. Not the best style or person to train in a Martial Art.

The rest was an attempt to explain my position on BJJ. But its pretty damn clear that moving into a cage from a Ring, limiting striking, and then having incompetent judging which allows for things like, dare I say, holding, helps ground fighting and in particular BJJ. The favoritism to BJJ may be off, but it does favor ground fighters, the sport of UFC MMA.

It seems while attempting to explain my opinion, or portions there of, to various people has developed into a mistake. As it has removed my entire point and shifted discussion away from my point into some stupid garbage about my evidence, when in fact my actual opinion was avoided. Sure, my opinion may be influenced by seemingly stupid evidence, but I have attempted to support my stance and opinion.


Eye gouges and throat punches? Why do people, in 2011, still believe these are instant fight equalizers? Why do people still think MMA didn't or hasn't evolved? Am I the only one that remembers when BJJ was considered the end all be all and few years later everyone was trying to get better at striking to have a better all around game? I guess I've been watching the wrong MMA.

They are not. They do not matter. Thats why I question the limitation of them. They are pieces of the puzzle of the new sport of MMA which helps ground fighting prevail. Or so thats my opinion.

If it were up to me, allow them. Nearly no person would get an eye gouge or a throat punch. Why? How the hell do you train these? And all they do is hurt/piss off the guy you are fighting, who with a submission can break you bones/snap tendons if he knows just about any submission style/art. Which if you gouge my eye, that is what I am aiming for.

For fighter safety they are limited, as when a guy has you near submission you will gouge his eye in order to win, or rather some person would who cant accept they were beaten by a better guy.


@ Danno:

Again, you are reading between the lines here. Everyone knows the back is the worst position. But most other ground styles do not have a back position. Catch tells you to reset. Sambo is aggressive and really is a push into a win style. BJJ is the single progressive position art, and is great at it.

That is all besides the point, the Guard, an exclusive position to BJJ, becomes viable because of the rule set. Or thats my opinion. Disagree if you want to, but that doesnt make my opinion wrong.

Where are there no rules?

Ring/cage: ruleset.

Street: laws.

Battlefield: Geneva convention.

Rules always followed? No.

Penalties for non-compliance? Yes.

Maybe some idiots on a desert island can go "no-rules".

Again, you are reading between the lines here. Everyone knows the back is the worst position. But most other ground styles do not have a back position. Catch tells you to reset. Sambo is aggressive and really is a push into a win style. BJJ is the single progressive position art, and is great at it.

That is all besides the point, the Guard, an exclusive position to BJJ, becomes viable because of the rule set. Or thats my opinion. Disagree if you want to, but that doesnt make my opinion wrong.

being able to fight from your back is necessary with no rules at all. the guard is useful in MMA because fighting on the ground is permitted. you'd have to introduce more rules and ban the guard to get what you're talking about.

even people who have never trained BJJ will use a rudimentary guard position when forced to fight from their back.

Do I really need to explain why laws are only going to stop you if a cop is in between two guys fighting? The laws are rules, yes, but people break them all the time and get punished at a later date, or after a car chase, or never based on where on the planet you live. (Lets go to Detroit, or BRAZIL!) Laws are set up to punish people who do bad things. If you are smart enough to realize something is against the law, odds are you were not really too sure about doing the bad thing, no?

On a battle field, crimes of war also occur all the time. And you get punished later, if ever. Look at the american war in Vietnam, or North Korea, or the Middle East dictatorships.

But in a sanctioned MMA event you have a ref right next to you from the state who instantly stops you from breaking the law or stopping it.

@ Danno:

Ideally they do. You are 100% correct. To that you are correct. The last resort option is pretty much the same with everyone. To that point the rules cant be changed without hurting everyone, and that would be stupid.

In such an instance, I am wrong.

I do still believe that the UFC's structure helps BJJ. But that my opinion and off of my point. That point is the UFC has branded a sport, and the best athlete will win when rules change whats going in.

To explain it better, its like assuming the best person at tackling will be the best football player, but he isnt because other rules and factors change what is best in football.

Actually, laws do cover "str33t": they allow you to defend yourself using a level of force proportional to that used against you.

Even in nature, there are rules (extension of the rules of physics) which determine what survives and what doesn't.

Sorry...where are there "no rules" again? I missed that.

First thing is first, American laws (Correct me if you are not from the United States, and this varies) would put a Martial Artist/Boxer/MMA Fighter behind bars for defending himself under most circumstances because he is trained to hurt others. It happens with boxers from time to time. This is because a punch from a normal person isnt a weapon. This is where the rumor of guys getting body parts registered as lethal weapons came from. If you train to harm others, and do so, you know exactly what you were doing. So if a pro boxer breaks a mans jaw who tries to rob him, guess who goes to jail?

No laws are different from not enforced. That was the point of that post. No MMA organization has 'no rules' but most vary. Dream and Pride had/have lesser rules than the UFC does.

A place in the world where laws are loosely enforced would be: Brazil, Detroit, many parts of the former USSR, Mexico, and most 3rd world nations. Lose laws, or laws which allow for this sort of thing. Places where you steal a loaf of bread and the shop owner can cut off your hand (Universal sign for a thief, and still enforced in the Middle East) allow some sorts of fighting the UFC does not.

i think that's an interesting point vieux - in reality we must always adapt to new "rules" - you could be fighting in a bar, on a footpath, in the sea while surfing, on a slippery surface, with someone much smaller and weaker who you don't wish to hurt. in the real world, every situation will involve some kind of restriction/s.


In such an instance, I am wrong.

well, it's refreshing to hear someone say that after spending so much time debating with people who will not admit when they are wrong.


To explain it better, its like assuming the best person at tackling will be the best football player, but he isnt because other rules and factors change what is best in football.

MMA has the least restrictions of any legal fighting sport in the west. the people who compete in it successfully have relatively complete skillsets compared to most other martial artists, and tend to perform very well in fights outside competition.

First thing is first, American laws (Correct me if you are not from the United States, and this varies) would put a Martial Artist/Boxer/MMA Fighter behind bars for defending himself under most circumstances because he is trained to hurt others. It happens with boxers from time to time. This is because a punch from a normal person isnt a weapon. This is where the rumor of guys getting body parts registered as lethal weapons came from. If you train to harm others, and do so, you know exactly what you were doing. So if a pro boxer breaks a mans jaw who tries to rob him, guess who goes to jail?

No laws are different from not enforced. That was the point of that post. No MMA organization has 'no rules' but most vary. Dream and Pride had/have lesser rules than the UFC does.

A place in the world where laws are loosely enforced would be: Brazil, Detroit, many parts of the former USSR, Mexico, and most 3rd world nations. Lose laws, or laws which allow for this sort of thing. Places where you steal a loaf of bread and the shop owner can cut off your hand (Universal sign for a thief, and still enforced in the Middle East) allow some sorts of fighting the UFC does not.
Just stop. This post just reinforces your silliness. Detroit? Really? Guess who ends up in jail if you are a professional boxer? Really? Every person from a Martial artist to the untrained nerd has a chance at self defense. It all depends on the situation just like anything.

Stick to the MMA rant and stay away from US case law.

well, it's refreshing to hear someone say that after spending so much time debating with people who will not admit when they are wrong.



MMA has the least restrictions of any legal fighting sport in the west. the people who compete in it successfully have relatively complete skillsets compared to most other martial artists, and tend to perform very well in fights outside competition.

That is also true, but I am a fan of all Martial Arts. Shidokan, k1, Dream, Pride, King of the Cage, Shark, Elite, Grappling with or without Gi, ect. In the world respective, and what I have seen and we have had, the rules are becoming more and more limiting.

But I come at it not from a 'I wanna see violence perspective' but rather I want to see more variations of Martial Arts perspective. I should just move to the East I guess.


Just stop. This post just reinforces your silliness. Detroit? Really? Guess who ends up in jail if you are a professional boxer? Really? Every person from a Martial artist to the untrained nerd has a chance at self defense. It all depends on the situation just like anything.

Stick to the MMA rant and stay away from US case law.

How about this, get a pro boxing license, and get into a fight. I personally know young men who have gone to prison for 'self defense' even when a weapon or multiple attackers were presented against them. The United State law system is subject to the judges interpretation. Because of this the room to prosecute for self defense. It is called a counter suit against the prosecutor, or a civil suit, or law suit against the person who defended themselves against you.

Or, use BJJ to to put a person in a hold who attempts to rob you, they do not 'tap' and you break the bone/snap tendon as they attempt to hurt you. Who will go to jail? Assault charges from the person in jail or a you saying he tried to steal your wallet and you had to break him arm using BJJ? That means you used excessive force and knew what you were doing.

I am not even going to touch case law. That opens a whole other can of worms. And if any person here is from France, it becomes two more large cans or worms.

And this city called Detroit is one I know quite well. With budget cuts and huge city limits, combined with an already notorious track record with police, it is quite common for crime to go unpunished. Hence bars on all windows, and people moving out of the city. Much like most of Brazil, the former USSR, and 3rd world countries. Not nearly as bad, but still a United States example which makes more sense in relation to modern law structure as if anyone one here was from rural Brazil/former USSR/3rd world nation, I would not be having this discussion.