With kuruma think wheel in terms of 'rotate around a fixed point'. On the rare occasions that I've had to practice or teach Kuruma-waza this has been the mantra I've used and emphasised. It seems to help people conceptualise what they are doing with their leg.

Yeah. Look at Koike at 0:26-0:28, above. So hard to do in practice.

Ben,

Would you be kind enough to explain to this yellow belt why that is not harai goshi. I know they are similar techniques, but I cannot see the nuances I guess.



Jeez, you guys all stole my teaching moment!

Think of Ashi Guruma (Leg/foot Wheel) as a reverse Hiza Guruma (Knee Wheel), a throw with which at your level you might be more familiar with.

For everyone else, Harai Goshi in it's pure form, does not sweep with the leg against uke leg as a major part of the throw. It's a koshi waza (hip technique), not an ashi waza.

I know the leg often, particularly in competition, is used strongly to help throw. I'm just writing about the principle of the throw.

As an extreme, perform tsurikomi for a Harai Goshi, but try not to use your hip, just knock back your leg against uke leg.

If you do not damage his leg so much he can't walk, you will probably get punched out.

Ben

Another example of yellow belt throwing. Please ignore the music and inane comments. Form is not the best, but sense of debana and action-reaction is amazing for someone who had done Judo 4 hours a week for maybe 5-6 months.
Ben

YouTube - 5 Ippon for Judo Gold Medal. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp94YQoKe4w)

Interestingly, I typed 'Hiza Garuma' in Youtube and got 'Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi'.

YouTube - Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi by Muneta Yasuyuki (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCF3CvSzCnE)

At first I thought I was watching a knee wheel, but then something about the fall and direction of the throw didn't look right. Then I noticed the title, and it referred right back to the above discussion.

More importantly: fwoar, what a nice sweep.

Interestingly, I typed 'Hiza Garuma' in Youtube and got 'Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi'.

YouTube - Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi by Muneta Yasuyuki (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCF3CvSzCnE)

At first I thought I was watching a knee wheel, but then something about the fall and direction of the throw didn't look right. Then I noticed the title, and it referred right back to the above discussion.

More importantly: fwoar, what a nice sweep.

Just FYI, neither Hiza Guruma or Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi are considered "sweeps" (harai waza) in Judo.

Ben

Interestingly, I typed 'Hiza Garuma' in Youtube and got 'Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi'.

YouTube - Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi by Muneta Yasuyuki (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCF3CvSzCnE)

At first I thought I was watching a knee wheel, but then something about the fall and direction of the throw didn't look right. Then I noticed the title, and it referred right back to the above discussion.

More importantly: fwoar, what a nice sweep.
Yeh as BKR says technically not a sweep. Sasaeru means 'to block' in Japanese which is where 'sasae' comes from. So its a 'blocking' technique rather than a sweeping as is clearer on the slow-mo replay.

Kuruma or Guruma as its normally romanized after a vowel means to 'wheel' or rotate around a fixed point.

Superficially quite similar actions but the underlying principle is quite different in terms of how the throw is effected.

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For those also reading the Okuri ashi barai thread Muneta uses the same 'set up' action-reaction sequence to attack with Sasae tsurikomi ashi as Okano uses for the Okuri ashi barai

Sorry, my brief time in Judo didn't cure me of my Karate 'sweep the leg' terminology.

Can you elaborate a little on what makes a 'block'?

Sorry, my brief time in Judo didn't cure me of my Karate 'sweep the leg' terminology.

Can you elaborate a little on what makes a 'block'?
No need to apologise, you're the grown up not me lol.

Well it can be quite a difficult distinction to make in the heat of randori or shiai.

However, the first 40 odd seconds of this video demonstrate it quite well.

YouTube - sasae tsurikomi ashi kihon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ogRlUgCYAM)

In the video he shows how you use the blocking action with the foot to interrupt the weight transfer of a forward step.

So uke's foot is back
http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz250/VQ1E4/stka3.png

Uke makes a complete forward step:
http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz250/VQ1E4/stka2.png

You block uke at the mid point of weight transfer when weight is being transfered back from planted food to the advancing foot:
http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz250/VQ1E4/stka.png

This principle of weight transfer interruption or in some cases acceleration is used in pretty much all ashiwaza.

However, where as in say a foot sweep like De ashi barai where the foot is swept out from uke. In a weight transfer interruptuption which is comparable to walking down the stairs in the dark, thinking there is an extra step, commiting your weight to it and then falling because there isn't one.

Imagine instead for Sasae tsurikomi ashi you're walking along carrying a box, that's large enough so that you can't see where you're treading. If you catch your foot on something at the end of the advancing step you might stumble, but you won't go flying. However, if you catch your foot on something in the middle of your step you'll go flying and smash whatever is the box.

Does that make sense?

That's a good question, and I'm not sure I can explain clearly. If I had my copy of Daigo's "Kodokan Judo: Throwing Techniques", I'd just quote verbatim from it.

In Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi, uke body is propped (another translation for "sasaeru") up then through tsurikomi action thrown straight over. Sort of like walking along and tripping over a cable at ankle height. When I do STKA, it feels like I can remove my foot from uke ankle quickly and throw with tsurikomi action. It is an "up and over" type of feel to the throw.

In Hiza Guruma, the knee is technically "blocked", but the throwing action is circular in a more horizontal plane than in STKA. You can literally feel the outside of uke knee rotating along the sole of your foot. Sometimes you catch the tendon on the outside of uke knee with your little toe as the final point of rotation, then uke is thrown more out and around, although not always.

In either throw, you can press your foot against uke shin/ankle/knee, but there is no sweeping involved. There is another throw, Harai Tsurikomi Ashi (considered one of the most difficult throws in Judo to do, let alone master), that involves sweeping.

Here, this explains it well (from the Kodokan videos).

YouTube - Hiza guruma - Sasae tsurikomi ashi- Harai tsurikomi ashi- Deashi harai- Okuri ashi harai (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm2e9CClGk4)

I've spent about half an hour trying to find my Daible but no joy. I hope I haven't lent it to someone and end up never seeing it again.

I've spent about half an hour trying to find my Daible but no joy. I hope I haven't lent it to someone and end up never seeing it again.

Daible? Is that Welsh? My copy of Daigo's book is on the bedstand. I often fall asleep with it on my face. Hopefully, a small portion will soak in over time.

Ben

Thanks for taking the time, gents. I can understand the difference put abstractly, but I've no 'feel' for it. It looks so similar, I can't understand how Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi feels to do - in my mind, it feels just like Hiza Garuma. This is just inexperience.

They can be similar in feel and appearance in randori or shiai, and in some cases blend together. Some people will tell you there is no difference.

Ben

I just remembered a key teaching point: In Hiza Guruma, you block the knee when uke leg is parallel to behind his other leg. In STKA, you block when the legs are even or one leg is advanced/advancing.

Not a hard and fast rule, but a basic one that speaks to best opportunity for each throw.

Ben

Ah, yes. I watched the videos again in light of what you've described. I see what you mean now: the disruption of balance is slightly different in each case.

A general point, to the floor, so to speak.

Easiest way to think about the difference between a ashiwaza is to think about the throwing principle conveyed within the name.

So people often say the difference between a Sasae tsurikomi ashi and a Hiza guruma is where you place the foot on the leg. If that were true then O guruma, Koshi guruma and Kata guruma would all be applied against the knee joint. This clearly isn't true.

So what go they all have in common? Well they all adhere to the principle of a fixed point around which uke is rotated. This is observable in all of Kuruma waza and is the principle by which Kuruma waza are defined and executed.

Another common confusion is between Harai and Gari. Most often this is found in the question of whether a throw is a Ko soto gari or De ashi barai. People will often say the difference lies in whether uke's foot is taken in front of them or straight forwards. However, this can't be the case because in Harai tsurikomi ashi uke's foot is taken behind them and in O uch gari uke's leg is taken out to their side. So direction of leg movement is not the contigent factor for Harai or Gari classification.

O soto gari, O uchi gari, Ko uchi gari and Ko soto gari all have one consistent principle that is that the majority of uke's weight should already concentrated on the leg that is attacked. However, as many people know if you try and perform a De ashi barai on a foot that the majority of uke's weight is on then nothing will happen.

That is because the throwing principle behind Harai is weight transfer. The leg should be attacked as majority of uke's weight is about to be transfered to or away from it. This is why Harai waza are much harder than Kari waza as the timing finesse in the fractions of a second when weight is about to be transfered away from or to a leg, is much more difficult to sense and react in time to.

And although all Judo techniques when performed in ideal conditions should be effortless the application of force to throw an opponent when the majortiy of their weight is already planted is greater than that when they are about to transfer theri weight to or away from a leg.

Thus the Harai waza are defined as 'sweeps' in English whereas the Gari waza are defined as 'reaps' in English. The connotations behind the words being chosen because 'sweep' has a much smoother and more effortless fell to it than 'reap' which is associated with a harsher, harder action.